[Avodah] What to do in Elul

Moshe Zeldman mzeldman2 at gmail.com
Thu Sep 3 00:33:32 PDT 2020


If one should not say “starting YK I will never...”, then how does that fit
with the Rambam in Teshuva (1:1) where part of the vidui is saying “and I
will never do X again”?

It sounds difficult to read into the Rambam that he means “I’m still going
to be doing X but I have a plan to eventually stop”




On Thu, 3 Sep 2020 at 4:12 <avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>
>
>    1. Re: Hashem your G-d (Zvi Lampel)
>
>    2. Re: Hashem your G-d (Micha Berger)
>
>    3. Re: What to do in Elul? (Micha Berger)
>
>    4. Re: It's not our fault (Micha Berger)
>
>    5. Re: Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on Shabbos
>
>       (Akiva Miller)
>
>    6. Re: Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on Shabbos
>
>       (Micha Berger)
>
>    7. Re: Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on Shabbos
>
>       (Zev Sero)
>
>    8. Re: Davening at home on Yamim Noraim (Akiva Miller)
>
>    9. Re: Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on Shabbos
>
>       (Rich, Joel)
>
>   10. Re: conservatism in davening (Akiva Miller)
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 09:53:18 -0400
>
> From: Zvi Lampel <zvilampel at gmail.com>
>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>,
>
>         Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Hashem your G-d
>
> Message-ID:
>
>         <
> CAPxEyabfrsb8kDLQzd7BTYpcZcQqOcyaDrjdZbyW8pD-K46QbA at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> >
>
> > In the Bikkurim procedure, the farmer says to the kohen, "I declare today
>
> > to Hashem your G-d that..." (Devarim 26:3)
>
> >
>
> > Why does he say "your G-d" instead of "my G-d"?
>
> >
>
>  This may happen elsewhere too,
>
>
>
> I think the idea is that some people have hasagos of Hashem that are higher
>
> than those of lesser people. The lesser person recognizes this, and refers
>
> to Hashem as perceived by the higher person. This is why we refer to the
>
> G-d of Avraham, etc. Therefore, the layman refers to the G-d of the Kohane,
>
> whose biblical role is to teach of Hashem and His Torah and therefore
>
> conceptualized Hashem more accurately.
>
>
>
> (I would have to concede that at first sight this does not work in
>
> cases where the person bringing the Bikkurim is actually greater than the
>
> Kohane. One can answer that it's a matter of *lo plug, *using a fixed
>
> formula for everyone at all times, following the normal situation. Or I
>
> would modify my explanation to say that the Kohane may not necessarily have
>
> a higher conceptualization but, through his avodah, a unique one not shared
>
> by others, which is relevant to the Bikkurim bringer in his role as such.)
>
>
>
> but this case stands out because the form
>
> > changes later on in this speech, when the farmer tells how "we cried out
> to
>
> > Hashem, the G-d of *our* ancestors..." (Devarim 26:7) Why the
> contrast?...
>
> >
>
>
>
> I think the above explanation works to explain this. In fact, note that the
>
> farmer is referring to the G-d of our "ancestors," meaning G-d as
>
> understood by the avos.
>
>
>
> Zvi Lampel
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 2
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 15:29:01 -0400
>
> From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
>
> Cc: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>, Zvi Lampel
>
>         <zvilampel at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Hashem your G-d
>
> Message-ID: <20200901192901.GA18013 at aishdas.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 01, 2020 at 09:53:18AM -0400, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
>
> >> Why does he say "your G-d" instead of "my G-d"?
>
>
>
> >  This may happen elsewhere too,
>
>
>
> > I think the idea is that some people have hasagos of Hashem that are
> higher
>
> > than those of lesser people. The lesser person recognizes this, and
> refers
>
> > to Hashem as perceived by the higher person. This is why we refer to the
>
> > G-d of Avraham, etc...
>
>
>
> I would have written something very similar, if RAM's email weren't still
>
> flagged "to do" in my email box when RZL's came in.
>
>
>
> However, I wouldn't have used the word "hasagah". I would have talked about
>
> the need to list "E-lokei Avraham", "E-lokai Yitzchaq" and "E-lokai Yaaqov"
>
> separately.
>
>
>
> To me, it speaks to the idea that the avos each had distinct relationships
>
> with the Borei. The "G-d of Avraham" was a different relationship than
>
> the G-d Yitzchaq "had" (kevayakhol).
>
>
>
> I don't know how RZL meant the word "hasagah", but to me it speaks to
> knowing
>
> *about* something. As in greater people have greater understandings of what
>
> G-d is.
>
>
>
> I would instead has said that "E-lokekha" is about the G-d the kohein has
>
> time to relate to more constantly than the farmer does.
>
>
>
> And it might also make the Vidui a statement about the farmer's
>
> relationship with G-d. Rather than who has more relationship, but about
>
> kidn of relationship.
>
>
>
> After all, the kohein may be learning, teaching and doing avodah all
>
> day, but the farmer teams up with G-d and relies on G-d to produce his
>
> crop. That's the point of the vidui -- that the G-d of Yetzias Mitzrayim
>
> gets credit for more day-to-day things my success. Something a kohein
>
> may only get more vicariously.
>
>
>
> So, he's saying to the kohein, "G-d is not only how you relate to Him
>
> from your ivory tower -- 'Your G-d', realize He also is intimately
>
> involved in my life and everyday life."
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
>
> -Micha
>
>
>
> --
>
> Micha Berger                 If you're going through hell
>
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   keep going.
>
> Author: Widen Your Tent                      - Winston Churchill
>
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
>
> -Micha
>
>
>
> PS: Interesting quote my signature generator chose from the perspective
>
> of being this close to the end of 5780. (Although we must remember, we
>
> are likely the first generation for whom life is normally so wonderful,
>
> this year qualified as a notably "bad" one.)
>
>
>
> --
>
> Micha Berger                 If you're going through hell
>
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   keep going.
>
> Author: Widen Your Tent                      - Winston Churchill
>
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 3
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 18:54:36 -0400
>
> From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
>
> Cc: avodah at aishdas.org, Ken Bloom <kbloom at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] What to do in Elul?
>
> Message-ID: <20200901225436.GC18013 at aishdas.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 05:30:40PM -0400, Ken Bloom wrote:
>
> > Can anyone share sources in mussar literature (or elsewhere) about what
> one
>
> > should do or think about to prepare for yamim noraim? I'm interested in
>
> > finding a guide to an Elul cheshbon hanefesh or something similar.
>
>
>
> I'll give you "or elsewhere". Here's what I do.
>
>
>
> 1-
>
>
>
> During the year, I try to keep a cheshbon hanefesh. Laziness and momentum
>
> being what it is, that means that I usually have a journal of the decisions
>
> and reactions of a few 1 to 2 month stretches during the year.
>
>
>
> So, something I do early in Elul is review those, see patterns, what
>
> changed during the gaps... And trying to compensate changes because I
>
> was just focused on different things in different parts of the year.
>
> I then try to mentally fill in the gaps, as I can. And then I make a
>
> list of those issues in my reactions, decisions and actions that seem
>
> to have recurred a lot. It's often not the issues I was thinking I was
>
> failing at before I looked through notes.
>
>
>
> For that matter, even if you "just" keep a diary of your responses to the
>
> week -- not what happened to you, but how you responded to it -- from now
>
> to RH would give more insight to what habits and middos might really need
>
> the most attention.
>
>
>
> And to make that list, I try for a list of 2 to 4 items that both need the
>
> most attention and yet balanced with things I can actually tackle. For
>
> example, I have a long-running battle with ka'as. But it may not be
>
> the chink in the armor most ready to move. I might want to work on my
>
> frustration threshold, noting that my temper is very often the sum of
>
> frustration plus having someone I can pin blame on.
>
>
>
> And the plan has to be incremental. Not "starting YK I never will..."
>
> or "will always", but "starting YK I will take the first step to...
>
> which is..."
>
>
>
> For exmple, not expressing frustration in a given set of situations.
>
> Or maybe right after work for the first hour I'm home. Or whatever.
>
>
>
> 2-
>
>
>
> So much for correcting past mistakes. My other step is something
>
> Bank of America mislabeled Hoshin Planning that I adapted for life.
>
>
>
> https://www.aishdas.org/asp/hoshin-plan
>
>
>
> 2a- Find a Mission Statement
>
>
>
> At this point, I have a mission statement I aspire to live by.
>
>
>
> The first year, I didn't. I picked a quote from a sefer that at the time
>
> (and still) really moved me. Look for something from a seifer (including
>
> the siddur) that sums up life's mission for you. Is it about deveiqus?
>
> And if about deveiqus -- what does that mean to you? Knowledge (as per
>
> the Rambam)? Experiencing the Divine? Having a relationship with Hashem?
>
> Partnering with Him in His Work -- and what is His Work? Or maybe you see
>
> it in terms of sheleimus or temimus. But then, what is a person supposed
>
> to be, that you can talk about being more perfect at being one? Is it
>
> emulating Hashem? Or bein adam lachaveiro? Or maybe you're on another
>
> page altogether -- you see the Torah's mission for your life in terms
>
> of Jewish Nationhood, or humanity.
>
>
>
> And I realize many of those will yield different phrasing of nearly the
> same
>
> answer. But only nearly the same. There could be situations where
> connotations
>
> matter and have a nafqa mina lemaaseh. But in any case, it has to be moving
>
> and inspiring based on the way HQBH made you.
>
>
>
> In short -- a sentence or two about how you see what the Torah is telling
>
> you to be at this point in your life.
>
>
>
> After the first year, you tweak it and revise it as you change.
>
>
>
> 2b- Drilling down
>
>
>
> A Mission Statement is pointless if it doesn't have a way to influence
>
> action.
>
>
>
> In a Hoshin Plan, upper management comes up with measurable goals for the
>
> firm. Each division head takes those goals that his division could help
>
> reach, and translates its items into smaller goals for his division. His
>
> group heads to the same to his goals, team heads... etc... The idea is that
>
> there is an individual programmer like myself can be shown how my program
>
> fits in the team's goal, the group's goal and so on up to the firm's goal
>
> as written up in the Mission Statement.
>
>
>
> Similarly life's Mission Statement. We can divide it and subdivide it
>
> into managable lists. Maybe three bullet items as top-level goals to
>
> make the mission statament happen. And 2-4 each for each of those
>
> goals to make subgoals and so on.
>
>
>
> The idea is to get to the point that when you decide to go to the kitchen
>
> to get a cup of coffee, you have a way to relate that decision to the
>
> approach to living al pi haTorah that you framed for yourself.
>
>
>
> Let me give an example, taken from the above blog page.
>
>
>
> Since I wrote a book based on R Shimon's haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher,
>
> the quote would be no surprise. For that matter, ch. 2 is titled
>
> "Mission Statement" and is a collection of thoughts about the
>
> openining sentence of the haqdamah. See the first paragraph of
>
> the copy in Widen Your Tent sec 1.1, pg 45 of the book or pg 4 of
>
> https://www.aishdas.org/asp/ShaareiYosher.pdf#page=4
>
>
>
> So, my orignal mission statement translates to (it is important to
>
> be in first person singular):
>
>    [My] greatest desire should be to do good to others, to individuals
>
>    and to the masses, now and in the future, in imitation of the Creator
>
>    (as it were). For everything He created and formed was according
>
>    to His Will (may it be blessed), [that is] only to be good to the
>
>    creations. So too His Will is that [I] walk in His ways.
>
>
>
> Now I can divide that into three subgoals:
>
> - Having a connection to G-d
>
> - Internalizing His Will
>
> - Being a conduit of Hashem's Good into the lives of others.
>
>
>
> Internalizing His will, for example, was first subdivided into
>
> - Daily learning (which is what drives projects like AhS Yomi)
>
> - Daily Mussar work (like what I'm describing in this post), and
>
> - Regular in-depth learning -- chavrusos, shiurim, etc...
>
>
>
> Notice at this point I can start filling in things I can do this year.
>
> What learning? Which shiurim? As in part 1 -- which middos and what are
>
> the first months' exercises to chip away at them. (And buying a pretty
>
> new notebook. Somehow I do best at cheshbon hanefesh when I have a
>
> kewl new toy to do it with.)
>
>
>
> Hopefully, by month end when this "Spiritual Hoshin Plan" is done, I
>
> can pause in the middle of the workday and be able to say for myself
>
> that I'm putting up with this irate trader on the phone (I work for a
>
> Hedge Fund) so that I can pay for tuition (goal 3.2.4.2.5 or some-such),
>
> I can develop my personal creativity (as per 1.2... as being in the
>
> image of the Creator is something I view as a Mussar goal), etc.. And
>
> thereby give sanctity to an otherwise mundane (and stressfull) activity.
>
>
>
> And then every year things shift. Both in how I look at the world and in
>
> what are the pressing issues requiring more attention. Where parenting
>
> sits in the hierarchy was very different when I started than now that my
>
> youngest is a teenager.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
>
> -Micha
>
>
>
> --
>
> Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable
> treasure.
>
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
>
> Author: Widen Your Tent      and helps us cope with adversity.
>
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF       - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of
> Mishlei"
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 4
>
> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 15:46:48 -0400
>
> From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
>
> Cc: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] It's not our fault
>
> Message-ID: <20200901194648.GB18013 at aishdas.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 10:45:48PM -0400, Akiva Miller wrote:
>
> > I've heard the same explanation of this many times from many sources. In
>
> > the words of "The Midrash Says", Devarim pg 242:
>
>
>
> >> The Elders were declaring that they were not even indirectly
>
> >> responsible for the crime: "We have never dismissed any
>
> >> stranger from our city without food (so that he might have
>
> >> been forced to steal for food and was killed in return), or
>
> >> without accompaniment (so that he might have gone unprotected
>
> >> on a dangerous road)."
>
>
>
> > How can the zekeinim have been so sure?
>
> >
>
> > Is it really beyond their imagination that some stranger might have
> passed
>
> > through unnoticed?
>
>
>
> Does it say that unnoticed strangers are included?
>
>
>
> The gemara (Sotah 46b) says (original at
> https://www.sefaria.org/Sotah.46b.9 ):
>
>     Would it cross our minds that BD were murderers?
>
>
>
>     Rather [they are saying]: He did not come to us and we dismissed him
>
>     without food. We didn't see him and leave him without accompaniment.
>
>
>
> My translation matches the TMS's, minus their parenthetic comments. (Which
>
> I will now assume is the author's insertions, rather than part of the
>
> medrash.)
>
>
>
> The two phrases "lo ba leyadeinu" and "vera'inhu" seem to me to mean
>
> the BD are saying that the didn't neglect anyone they knew of. That not
>
> knowing the person was in town would be one of the reasons they wouldn't
>
> be guilty.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
>
> -Micha
>
>
>
> --
>
> Micha Berger                 Man is capable of changing the world for the
>
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   better if possible, and of changing himself
> for
>
> Author: Widen Your Tent      the better if necessary.
>
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Victor Frankl, Man's search for
> Meaning
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 5
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 08:00:31 -0400
>
> From: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> To: avodah at aishdas.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on
>
>         Shabbos
>
> Message-ID:
>
>         <CABiM0cK-5dccH22E5D6xUTYF2WLWA8OpUqY1nfA0O_u=
> KNCNNA at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> .
>
> Much of this discussion (such as R' Zev Sero's comments) seems to focus on
>
> the arrival and delivery. But isn't the other work also a factor?
>
>
>
> Suppose I order something on Friday from a location that is one day away. I
>
> think it is assur to request Sunday delivery, because I know that it won't
>
> be possible unless the package is in transit during Shabbos. In contrast,
>
> if I request Monday delivery, that would be okay, even though I know that
>
> they'll be working for me on Shabbos, because it was their choice to work
>
> on Saturday rather than Sunday.
>
>
>
> Akiva Miller
>
> -------------- next part --------------
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 6
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 10:11:20 -0400
>
> From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
>
> Cc: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on
>
>         Shabbos
>
> Message-ID: <20200902141120.GA27483 at aishdas.org>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 02, 2020 at 08:00:31AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>
> > Much of this discussion (such as R' Zev Sero's comments) seems to focus
> on
>
> > the arrival and delivery. But isn't the other work also a factor?
>
>
>
> Well, if there isn't a contracted delivery date of Shabbos, then it's
>
> their choice whether to do melakhah for you on Shabbos, Friday or Sunday.
>
> The package could sit around in a transfer facility for 25 hours while
>
> they deal with more urgent packages if it's not the delivery date. The
>
> choice is theirs.
>
>
>
> But if it's next-day delivery and you place the order on Friday (or after
>
> hours Thursday) you know you are asking them to do melakhah on Shabbos.
>
>
>
> I guess in the case of (eg) 3 day delivery, since it wouldn't violate the
>
> contract to get it there in 2, someone might argue that you aren't
>
> asking them to do the delivery on Shabbos. But I don't know if mutar
>
> alternatives matter even when they're implausible.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
>
> -Micha
>
>
>
> --
>
> Micha Berger                 A pious Jew is not one who worries about his
> fellow
>
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew
> worries
>
> Author: Widen Your Tent      about his own soul and his fellow man's
> stomach.
>
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                     - Rav Yisrael Salanter
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 7
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:46:49 -0400
>
> From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
>
> To: avodah at lists.aishdas.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on
>
>         Shabbos
>
> Message-ID: <66cf413b-bbfa-c02e-885f-8a8bb7e152ce at sero.name>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>
>
> On 2/9/20 8:00 am, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
>
> > Suppose I order something on Friday from a location that is one day
>
> > away. I think it is?assur to request Sunday delivery, because I know
>
> > that it won't be possible unless the package is in transit during
> Shabbos.
>
>
>
> I agree, *if* you know where it's coming from, and that it's not
>
> bich'dei sheyei'asu without working on Shabbos.  But in the general case
>
> you don't know that, and I don't see why you have to worry about it just
>
> on spec.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
>
> zev at sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 8
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:45:46 -0400
>
> From: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> To: avodah at aishdas.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Davening at home on Yamim Noraim
>
> Message-ID:
>
>         <
> CABiM0c+1patT7b5FcLCxbn8wuZsCXzmoGyC846J6cQxP-9JJjQ at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> .
>
> R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:
>
>
>
> > Rav Yitzchok Hutner often said that it is better to daven a
>
> > little with Kavanah, than a lot without. The result is that
>
> > selichos in Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin take no more than 15
>
> > minutes, IIRC.
>
>
>
> It is my opinion that merely shortening the duration does little or nothing
>
> to improve the quality. Fifteen minutes of rushed mumbling is no better
>
> than an hour of it, except that people will be less resentful of the time
>
> that's been taken from them.
>
>
>
> Much more important is the speed at which it is said. If the length of time
>
> would remain constant, but pages were skipped so that the rest could be
>
> said carefully and attentively, THAT'S what Chazal meant by "better to
>
> daven a little with Kavanah, than a lot without."
>
>
>
> Akiva Miller
>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 9
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 20:49:48 +0000
>
> From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich at Segalco.com>
>
> To: 'The Avodah Torah Discussion Group' <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] Can One Order a Package Knowing It May Arrive on
>
>         Shabbos
>
> Message-ID:
>
>         <
> CY4PR02MB25993558995FE1F789868116BF2F0 at CY4PR02MB2599.namprd02.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>
>
> But if it's next-day delivery and you place the order on Friday (or after
>
> hours Thursday) you know you are asking them to do melakhah on Shabbos.
>
> -------------------------------
>
> And if you say I want it by Sunday night and the clerk says OK -that's
> Saturday delivery and you say nothing?
>
> KVCT
>
> Joel Rich
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 10
>
> Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 21:08:38 -0400
>
> From: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
>
> To: avodah at aishdas.org
>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] conservatism in davening
>
> Message-ID:
>
>         <
> CABiM0cJ4esqYBS9zWh5bP1UnGZYs67zrTwZ+HeYOcVVLWc9ULw at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> .
>
> In the thread "Davening at home on Yamim Nora'im", R' Arie Folger wrote:
>
>
>
> > By the way,  this is a great time to introduce the proper
>
> > recitation of certain popular piyutim that are generally paused
>
> > wrong: Vekhol Maaminim, Ma'aseh E-loheinu, Imru l'E-lohim, Ata
>
> > Hu E-loheinu.
>
> >
>
> > In all this cases,  a wrong "minhag" has established itself to
>
> > read the latter half of one line with the former half of the next
>
> > line,  always weirdly stopping in the middle. Or to use the
>
> > opening refrain as a closing refrain. That's just plain wrong,
>
> > so this is the year we can all train to adapt the time to the
>
> > proper sentence structure,  so next year we break the bad habit.
>
>
>
> I can see where some people might read the above, and feel that Rabbi
>
> Folger is being subjective and arbitrary in his choices of "proper" and
>
> "wrong". I had my brain all psyched up to spend the next hour or so writing
>
> a post to explain how he is objectively correct, and then I remembered that
>
> we covered this ground four years ago.
>
>
>
> Anyone who wants to learn more about how the recitation of these piyutim
>
> got messed up is strongly invited to review the thread "conservatism in
>
> davening" at
>
>
> https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=C#CONSERVATISM%20IN%20DAVENING
>
>
>
> Akiva Miller
>
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> ------------------------------
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>
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
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>
>
> End of Avodah Digest, Vol 38, Issue 72
>
> **************************************
>
> --
-----------------------------
Moshe Zeldman

Israel: (+972) 54 256 2888

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