[Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz

Richard Fiedler richardfiedler at mac.com
Tue Jul 3 10:10:49 PDT 2018


> On Jul 3, 2018, at 6:58 PM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:

> On 03/07/18 10:36, Richard Fiedler via Avodah wrote:
>> In the gemora of Rosh Hashanah at the end of Daf 24 begins a discussion:
...
>> I created a spreadsheet from the time of creation of all of the moladot
>> and discovered that occasionally the Old Moon could indeed be seen on the
>> morning of the day before the Molad of Tishrei. Such was the case for the
>> Molad of Tishrei 120 CE a time consistent with the life of Rabban Gamliel.
>> On Sunday morning September 8 the Old Moon would have been visible
>> until daybreak. That night was the start of the Molad of Tishrei. The
>> actual Crescent New Moon would not be seen until Wed September 11 at
>> 6:12 PM.

> Therefore the witnesses must have come on Thursday, four days after
> the old moon had last been seen, according to your calculations.

I am using an astronomy program called Sky View Caf plus some custom
charts made for me by Robert Harry van Gent, of the Mathematical Institute
of Utrecht.

The witnesses came per the announcement of the Molad on Sunday Night after
sunset and did not see anything but presumed that since this was the
the start of the 30th day after Rosh Chodesh Elul and since the gemora
states that from the time of Ezra Elul was always 29 days thought that
it was safe to pretend they saw the Crescent New Moon. In fact of course
nothing was visible.

>> It should be obvious that Chazal was not at all concerned about
>> being Mekudesh of the Moon at the correct time but rather at a
>> consistent time for all Am Yisrael as it shows with its latter
>> statement "Atem, Atem, Atem".

> What does this even mean? Whatever day they announced would by
> definition be consistent for the whole nation. Nobody else was making
> any kind of calculations, so they didn't have to stay consistent with
> anybody else.

Please open the gemora of Rosh Hashanah.  
'Atem' [you, plural] is written three times, to imply 'you' [may fix
the festivals] even if you err inadvertently; 'you' even if you err
deliberately; 'you' even if you are misled.

>> Now in my opinion since the Mishnah was talking about an
>> impossibility, that of seeing the old moon in the morning and the
>> new moon that night, the circumstances of this case were the following:
>> Rabban Gamliel calculated the Molad and announced the Molad perhaps
>> on Shabbat Mevorkim. Now potential witnesses were primed to see the
>> new moon shortly after sunset

> First, there was no such thing as Shabbos Mevorchim. Second, if he
> were for some strange reason to be using our system of mean moldos,
> as you suppose, then he would have (incorrectly) announced the molad
> for Sunday night (according to you), and therefore why would witnesses
> be waiting on Wednesday night?

Were you there? The gemora says Rabban Gamliel calculated the Molad, why if not to announce it.

>> So potential witnesses went out on the evening that starts the day
>> of the Molad seeking to receive the rewards stated in the gemora
>> Rosh Hashanah and not surprisingly claimed to have seen the new moon.

> Very surprisingly, according to you. You say it was not visible until
> Wednesday, so how could they come Monday and claim to have seen it?

That is the point. My spreadsheets cover the Molad from the Molad of
Tohu [Creation] until now. Ever Molad of Tishrei is approximately 70%
of the time two days before the moon can be seen, or 26% of the time one
day before the moon can be seen or 4% of the time three days before the
moon can be seen. When the discrepancy is three days the Old Moon can
be seen that morning.

> In fact your entire scenario makes no sense, because witnesses already
> knew which night to go out: the 30th night of the month. That is the
> only night on which they could see a new moon and go report it the
> next morning. The BD is not interested in viewings on earlier nights
> (which ideally shouldn't be possible) and if nobody shows up on the 30th
> day they automatically declare the next day to be rosh chodesh whether
> the moon is seen or not, so they have no interest in witnesses who show
> up the following day. So anyone interested in being a witness knows to
> go out on the 30th evening and hope.

That is the essential modes operandi of the way the Fixed Hebrew Calendar
is setup. Elul is always 29 days before Rosh Hashanah. Before the Dehiyyot
Rosh Hashanah was always the same as the Molad of Tishrei. After the
Dehiyyot were established, I believe by Saadia Gaon, The Molad of
Tishrei was deferred by one or two days. In fact the Dehiyyot Molad
Zaqen explicitly prevents the possibility of seeing the Old Moon in the
morning of Erev Rosh Hashanah.



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