[Avodah] The Molad of Tamuz

[Zev Sero]

On 03/07/18 10:36, Richard Fiedler via Avodah wrote:
> In the gemora of Rosh Hashanah at the end of Daf 24 begins a discussion:
> 
> “Two witnesses came and said we saw the [the old moon] in the morning in 
> the East and [the new moon] in the West. R’ Yohanan ben Nuri’s said they 
> were false witnesses. Yet Rabban Gamliel accepted them.”
> 
> I created a spreadsheet from the time of creation of all of the moladot 
> and discovered that occasionally the Old Moon could indeed be seen on 
> the morning of the day before the Molad of Tishrei. Such was the case 
> for the Molad of Tishrei 120 CE a time consistent with the life of 
> Rabban Gamliel.
> 
> On Sunday morning September 8 the Old Moon would have been visible until 
> daybreak. That night was the start of the Molad of Tishrei. The actual 
> Crescent New Moon would not be seen until Wed September 11 at 6:12 PM.

Therefore the witnesses must have come on Thursday, four days after the 
old moon had last been seen, according to your calculations.


> It should be obvious that Chazal was not at all concerned about
> being Mekudesh of the Moon at the correct time but rather at a
> consistent time for all Am Yisrael as it shows with its latter
> statement “Atem, Atem, Atem”.
What does this even mean?  Whatever day they announced would by 
definition be consistent for the whole nation.  Nobody else was making 
any kind of calculations, so they didn't have to stay consistent with 
anybody else.


> Now in my opinion since the Mishnah was talking about an
> impossibility, that of seeing the old moon in the morning and the
> new moon that night, the circumstances of this case were the following:
> 
> Rabban Gamliel calculated the Molad and announced the Molad perhaps 
> on Shabbat Mevorkim. Now potential witnesses were primed to see the
> new moon shortly after sunset

First, there was no such thing as Shabbos Mevorchim.  Second, if he were 
for some strange reason to be using our system of *mean* moldos, as you 
suppose, then he would have (incorrectly) announced the molad for Sunday 
night (according to you), and therefore why would witnesses be waiting 
on *Wednesday* night?

> So potential witnesses went out on the evening that starts the day
> of the Molad seeking to receive the rewards stated in the gemora
> Rosh Hashanah and not surprisingly claimed to have seen the new moon.

Very surprisingly, according to you.  You say it was not visible until 
Wednesday, so how could they come Monday and claim to have seen it?


In fact your entire scenario makes no sense, because witnesses already 
knew which night to go out: the 30th night of the month.  That is the 
*only* night on which they could see a new moon and go report it the 
next morning.  The BD is not interested in viewings on earlier nights 
(which ideally shouldn't be possible) and if nobody shows up on the 30th 
day they automatically declare the next day to be rosh chodesh whether 
the moon is seen or not, so they have no interest in witnesses who show 
up the following day.  So anyone interested in being a witness knows to 
go out on the 30th evening and hope.




-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
zev at sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper