[Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)

[Marty Bluke]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:10 PM, Prof. Levine <larry62341 at optonline.net>
wrote:
> At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>> And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi world agrees with his
>> teshuva.

> If so, then how do you account for the many Chareidim here in the US who
> attend Touro College,  enroll in TTI (See https://goo.gl/hnRCy6 ), attend
> the training programs the Agudah sponsors both here in Brooklyn  and in
> Lakewood, as well as many other options available.  Many seminaries today
> offer programs leading to college degrees both here and in Israel.

Touro College was established against the wishes of the Charedi Gedolim see
http://haemtza.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/yosefs-folly.html for example for
details.

> My understanding is that more and more Chareidim, both men and women,  in
> EY are pursuing higher secular education.

Again against the wishes of the Charedi Gedolim. R' Steinman called Charedi
colleges for women, a pig with a streimel (see
http://www.kikar.co.il/216994.html ). That same article quotes R' Yitzchak
Zilberstein (author of a widely read series on halacha) as saying:

" *Rachel Imenu sat on the idols and didn't burn them. She wanted to
denigrate the wisdom of the other nations, she didn't want to burn them,
rather to teach the Jewish people, I don't need any outside wisdom and
therefore she was priviliged with having Yosef who astounded the world with
his wisdom which was solely torah based. *

*We have to instill in our daughters: A jewish home that is free of any
trace of non-Jewish wisdom and learns only Torah will never be hurt."*

>> There is no question that the simple reading of the Rama is like R' Baruch
>> Ber. The Rama writes:

>> "But it is not for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna and Gemara
>> and the halachic decisors that come after them and through this they will
>> acquire this world and the world to come. But not with learning any other
>> wisdoms. In any case, it is permitted to learn through happenstance all
>> other knowledge as long as it isn't a book of heresy.  This is what called
>> by the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A person should not take a trip in the
>> Pardes until he has filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah] and he
>> knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"

>> The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a
>> regular set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even happenstance
>> secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.

> Yet the GRA studied mathematics in his youth.

The Gra was sui generis, when he studied mathematics in his youth he
already knew shas and poskim.

 From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Isserles
> Not only was Isserles a renowned Talmudic and legal scholar, he was also
> learned in Kabbalah, and studied history, astronomy and philosophy. He
> taught that "the aim of man is to search for the cause and the meaning
> of things" ("Torath ha-Olah" III., vii.). He also held that "it is
> permissible to now and then study secular wisdom, provided that this
> excludes works of heresy... and that one [first] knows what is permissible
> and forbidden, and the rules and the mitzvot" (Shulkhan Aruch, Yoreh
> De'ah, 246, 4). Maharshal reproached him for having based some of his
> decisions on Aristotle. His reply was that he studied Greek philosophy
> only from Maimonides' Guide for the Perplexed, and then only on Shabbat
> and Yom Tov (holy days) -- and furthermore, it is better to occupy
> oneself with philosophy than to err through Kabbalah (Responsa No. 7).

Not sure what you point is here, the Rama is quoted exactly as I wrote, you
cal leanr secular studies only now and then and only after you know shas
and poskim.

> And how many people are capable of capable of learning "anything but
> Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic decisors that come after them."
> as I pointed out earlier the Meddrah in Koheles as well as the Mishna
> Brurah make it clear that only a very small percentage of people are
> capable of studying Torah all day.

> Also, have not times changed since the time of the RAMA?

Is halacha not timeless? Is the value of Torah less in 2018 then it was in
1518?