[Avodah] The 13 middos
micha at aishdas.org
Wed Dec 6 11:23:17 PST 2017
On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 07:15:42AM +0200, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: See the Mishne Lamelech avadim 3:9 where he states that it is either or and
: the 2 styles cannot be mixed, and his main proof is from the Gemara Shavuos
: 4b where the Gemara asks on Rebbe how can he darshen a ribui umiut like R
: Akiva if in general he darshens Klal Uprat...
And yet the conclution on 5a is that he holds like R' Yishma'el's beis
medrash who holds the derashah is not kelal uperat but ribui umi'ut
("ribah umi'at"). R Yisma'el, the one who codified the rules of kelal
uperat is the one who here uses ribui umi'ut!?
So is the gemara really saying that Rebbe is not crossing the line,
as it seems to be saying. Or is it intentionally also implying there
is no line to cross? Tosafos there ("detana Devei R' Yishma'el") might
be saying the latter; it is too terse for me to be sure of intent. And
yet further down on 5a, we have "Hashta de'amres... -- Now that you say
that Rebbe darshans kelal uperat, you are forced into a question about
shavu'os...?" IOW, reassuming the line.
In any case, I am totally lost. In a discussion of how no one uses both
sets of rules, it cites the school that created one set using the other
set, and not saying anything about it. There is more going on here than
I comprehend so far.
As RSRH said (Collected Writings vol V pg 170), there are many such
cases of R' Yishmael and R' Aqiva uses the other's rules. RSRH treats
the rule as a tendency, rather than a line one may not cross. I wish I
knew his interpretation of the gemara in Shavuos. But it's not like the
MlM, nor the ba'al Atzmos Yoseif (whom the MlM is discussing), and does
acknowledge the actual positions taken across both shasin.
Just thinking out loud... Maybe the gemaros we're looking at are bothered
because these are all cases where both kelalim apply and in each case they
imply different dinim. IOW, it is not a question of Rebbe (or devei R
Yismael) using ribui umi'ut, but of favoring the derashah that he tends
not to OVER the derashah that is his norm.
And to handle RSRH's observation, in a case where it is not a choice
between conflicting kinds of derashos, no one would be asking why Rebbe
used a kelal uperat, as such line-crossing is normal.
: See also tosafos nidda 30a s.v. Ushma mina where tosafos says that we
: pasken that we darshen Klal uprat and not ribui umiut...
Nidda 30a "ushma minah tevilah bizmanah mitzvah" is about holding
like Beis Shammai, and doesn't mention derashos. The previous d"h,
"shema minah telas" (a near match) also isn't on topic. Could you
please fix the citation for me?
: Regarding the Gemara in bechoros 51a it is actually a proof the other way.
: The Gemara says that this case is an exception because it is not written in
: the normal way of a Klal uprat and therefore in this case only...
This is a 2nd variant of the same sugya as Shavu'os. (To clarify
for those moderately interested, but not sufficiently so to look for
Rashi ("hakha"), who says it's a general rule: kelal uperat ukelal isn't
judged as a kelal uperat but as a ribui umi'ut. IIUC, Rashi is saying
that Rebbe is staying within his usual rule set, but this is a case where
both rule sets include the same derashah, just under different names.
Thanks to RMTorczyner (CCed) <http://www.webshas.org/torah/alpeh/midos.htm>:
> Choosing between using "Kelal/Perat" and "Ribuy/Miut": Eruvin 27b-28a;
> Succah 50b; Kiddushin 21b
The first two don't really deal with tannaim using only one rule set, but
Qiddush 21b is a third version of our sugya. I didn't see anything to add
to the discussion beyond a way to rope RMT in, and perhaps he'll talk to
R' Jonathan Ziring about the question.
(RMT is the Rosh Beit Midrash of the YU-Torah Mitzion Zichron Dov Beit
Midrash of Toronto, RJZ is the segan. Back when RJZ was in the kollel
at YHE ["Gush"], he gave a series of shiurim on meta-halakhah. I thought
I had RJZ's address, as we had a short correspondance, but since I didn't
find it, I figured that once I was bothering RMT for his opinion...)
Micha Berger I always give much away,
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