[Avodah] Torah precheit?

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Nov 08, 2017 at 11:53:24AM -0500, H Lampel via Avodah wrote:
: On 11/7/2017 6:05 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
:> ... that the universe was created at some point in the nearer
:> past, eg 5778 years ago -- or Last Thursday -- and everything before that is
:> fake. ...is the position of ... R' Avigdor Miller.

: He certainly is not of the opinion of last-Thursday-ism. (I suspect RMB did not really mean that.) His opinion is based on the mesora.

I meant omphalism. Which is not based on the mesora, it's based on pashut
peshat in a pasuq. A pasuq that we don't really have much mesorah saying
actually hyas a pashut peshat, at least not one we can comprehend.

: Re: "and everything before that is fake. ...is the position of ... R'
: Avigdor Miller"

: To clarify, R' Avigdor Miller's position is not that fossils, for example,
: were planted merely as a test of our emunah.

Which is why I didn't say that.

Continuing with RZL's quote of RAM's Rejoice O Youth (pp. 47-48):
:> Why should the [dinosaurs] need explanation any more than the
:> dodo, the passenger pigeon, or any of the other species which
:> have become extinct, some even in our time? The huge
:> animals of ancient times, as well as many small animals,
:> became extinct each in the due time decreed by the timetable
:> of Heaven. ... Their existence is a fact which does
:> not help th theory of Evolution in any manner.

So he says it's simply incomprehensible.

I also gave a different explanation than "test of our emunah" -- necessary
for having a sensible and detectable teva.

My point was to defend the viability of omphalism of both RAM's and the
LR's sorts. Asking "Why would Hashem be so cruel as to create all that
to mislead, at best to test" question presumes a strawman.


: However, that Adam was created as a 30-year-old (as Chazal say), with,
: for example, a full mouth of teeth? Yes. Because:

:>   "Creation means that the Universe began at once in full-blown development.
:>   The First Man immediately had trees whose fruit he could eat.
....
:> (Ibid. pp 45-46)

See Bereishis Rabba 14:7 <http://www.sefaria.org/Bereishit_Rabbah.14.7>).
According to R Yehudah bar Shimon says that "ofer olam" was created in
his fullness. R' Elazar b Shimon says that Chava was too. R'
Yochanan says they were creates as 20 (quibble: not 30) year olds.

And then down in 14:10, R Yehudah says that Adam was made with a tail,
but it was removed for the sake of his kavod. Evolution anywone?
<grin>

BUT:
The month that Adam was born in is part of the greater machloqes between
R' Yehoshua and R' Eliezer about Nissan vs Tishrei (RH 11a). Meaning,
if the world was created in Tishrei, when "the earth brings forth plants
and trees full of fruit", then yes, this medrash stands. But if the world
was created in Nissan, when the plants start growing and the fruit is
emerging from the tree (as the gemara puts it), then perhaps not.

In any case, the meaning thereby ascribed to saying the world was made
in Nissan is that the universe was created at its start. Regardless of
Adam's development when born.

So I would have said "one opinion in Chazal", not "as Chazal say".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Friendship is like stone. A stone has no value,
micha at aishdas.org        but by rubbing one stone against another,
http://www.aishdas.org   sparks of fire emerge. 
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  - Rav Mordechai of Lechovitz