[Avodah] R. Akiva, Bar Kochba and Zecharya HaNovi

[Zev Sero]

On 11/10/17 13:11, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 12:02:55PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : On 11/10/17 11:42, Micha Berger wrote:
> : >The man described in the Y-mi Taanis 24b (4:5) doesn't sound personally
> : >observant.
> :
> : The Rambam clearly doesn't hold like the Yerushalmi's version of the
> : story, because he holds that the Chachamim stuck with BK until he
> : was killed "ba`avonos"...
> 
> How does this conflict with the Y-mi's picture of a less than ideal
> Bar Kokhva?

It conflicts because the Y'mi's version of the story has the Chachamim 
abandoning BK *before* his fall.   The Rambam clearly does not agree 
with that whole version of the story.  In his version BK was and 
remained a tzadik until his tragic end, which happened not for his own 
sins but for those of others.



> It's possible the Rambam would consider the potentially natural cataclysms
> in Zekhariah to be non-allegory, as the examples of non-literal nevu'os
> he gives would have been lema'alah min hateva if literal. I don't know
> where he's drawing the line; nevi'ah qua nevu'ah is bederekh mashal,
> or only the phantastical stories should be dismissed.

He doesn't draw a line at all.  He carefully doesn't say that Moshiach 
*won't* perform miracles, but merely that he *needn't*, because BK 
didn't and yet was assumed to be Moshiach.    Which further contradicts 
the Y'mi's version, which says he was rejected because he could not 
judge people by smelling whether they're right or wrong, a feat of which 
the True Moshiach(tm) must be capable.


> 
> :                          That word is ambiguous (whose sins, his or
> : the people's) but later he says a presumptive Moshiach who's killed
> : is "kechol malchei beis Dovid hash'leimim vehak'sheirim", so we can
> : assume he holds that BK was killed for the generation's sins, not
> : for his own, hence "ba`avonos", not "ba`avonosav".
> 
> But either way -- whether he or the generation was sinful -- it would
> show that BK didn't fit the Rambam's descrition of moshiach.

How so?   He was righteous, and forced people to keep Torah, but they 
didn't listen, just like Yoshiyahu.


> But in any case, if that's your description of the masses, you still
> have BK not yet succeeding in that regard at the time of his death.

Again, how so?  The requirement is that he forces all Israel to follow 
it and to reinforce its breaches.  Not that he educates them, or makes 
them enthusiastic, but simply that he makes the Shulchan Aruch the law 
of the land, punishing those who break it.   There are always 
lawbreakers; one would not therefore say that the government is not 
forcing people to obey the law.



> : the question isn't what the majority would have done on their own,
> : but whether BK forced them to obey halacha, and the Rambam assumes
> : he did.
> 
> The Rambam doesn't say so. That's your deduction. It requires assuming
> that the Rambam agrees with R' Aqiva over what the grounds for presuming
> (making a chazqah) that someone is moshiach. He doesn't say R' Aqiva is
> indeed his source.

He explicitly uses him as his source that Moshiach needn't perform 
miracles.   How could he do so if his vision of Moshiach's 
qualifications were different from R Akiva's?   If he holds that 
Moshiach must be a tzadik but RA didn't, then how does he know that 
Moshiach needn't perform miracles just because R Akiva thought so?


> And it also requires assuming R Aqiva was following BK because of a
> chazaqah, rather than probability and rov. You haven't addressed my
> "maybe" of R Aqiva following BK without BK having yet fulfilled all of
> the moshiach's role becuase of an expectation that BK would be getting
> there. My added "not yet".

Again, this is impossible because if so how does he know R Akiva didn't 
indeed require Moshiach to perform miracles, and was expecting them to 
happen any day now?  How can he say that Moshiach need *never* perform 
miracles, and if he achieves everything he's supposed to without the 
need for miracles we will still have to accept him as Vadai Moshiach? 
Clearly he understands that R Akiva was *not* expecting any miracles, 
and that this didn't bother him, because it isn't a requirement.

None of which rules out the actual Moshiach, when he does come, 
performing miracles.  The Rambam's position on this, unlike the Y'mi's, 
is neutral.  He might perform miracles or he might not.  Some or all of 
the nevuos might turn out literally, but some or all might not.  The 
nevuos he says can't be literal, at least in the initial stage of Yemos 
Hamoshiach, are not ones about miracles but about permanent changes in 
nature.  Chazal said that Ein Bein Olam Hazeh Liymos Hamoshiach Ela... 
so nevuos about a change in nature must either be metaphorical or refer 
to Olam Haba.  But nevuos about miracles may or may not happen 
literally, we won't know until we  get there.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
zev at sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all