[Avodah] R. Akiva, Bar Kochba and Zecharya HaNovi

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 12:02:55PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: On 11/10/17 11:42, Micha Berger wrote:
: >The man described in the Y-mi Taanis 24b (4:5) doesn't sound personally
: >observant.
: 
: The Rambam clearly doesn't hold like the Yerushalmi's version of the
: story, because he holds that the Chachamim stuck with BK until he
: was killed "ba`avonos"...

How does this conflict with the Y-mi's picture of a less than ideal
Bar Kokhva?

If anything, it reinforces my suggestion that R' Aqiva was awaiting
the rest of the nevu'ah. And once he is waiting for the things the
Rambam mentions, then it's possible the Rambem would expect Zerkhariah's
nevu'os to happen literally, but also something R' Aqiva was awaiting.

It's possible the Rambam would consider the potentially natural cataclysms
in Zekhariah to be non-allegory, as the examples of non-literal nevu'os
he gives would have been lema'alah min hateva if literal. I don't know
where he's drawing the line; nevi'ah qua nevu'ah is bederekh mashal,
or only the phantastical stories should be dismissed.

(This is a sibling to our discussion of the Rambam on midrashic stories.
I claim he is saying that no medrash was repeated for historical content.
Therefore any medrash can be ahistorical, but the fantastical stories you
should take for granted as being ahistorical. You have been limiting
the Rambam's denial of historicity for the fantastical stories.
s/medrash/nevu'ah/g -- where do you stand?)

:                          That word is ambiguous (whose sins, his or
: the people's) but later he says a presumptive Moshiach who's killed
: is "kechol malchei beis Dovid hash'leimim vehak'sheirim", so we can
: assume he holds that BK was killed for the generation's sins, not
: for his own, hence "ba`avonos", not "ba`avonosav".

But either way -- whether he or the generation was sinful -- it would
show that BK didn't fit the Rambam's descrition of moshiach. For obvious
reasons, I'll add: ... at least not yet. If the generation sinned too
much to merit redemption, BK wasn't too good at bringing the masses
to observance.

Besides, being like a kosher and shaleim member of beis David could mean
"even if", we still know he wasn't the moshiach.

: >This is also why in both R' Aqiva's world as well as R' Meir's and R'
: >Shim'on's -- before and after BK's revolt -- it is taken for granted
: >that most Jews are amei ha'aretz.
: 
: Amei Haaretz were in the Perushim "denomination".  They kept Perushi
: halacha as well as they understood it, even if they despised the
: Chaverim who taught it...

Actually, I thought they were denominationless, as likely to follow
anyone's dictates. A pagan notion of listening to every holy man, rather
than picking sides.

But in any case, if that's your description of the masses, you still
have BK not yet succeeding in that regard at the time of his death.

: in maasros, and weren't careful all year with taharos, but they were
: careful with terumah and never told lies on Shabbos...

They were also careful with maaser, more often than not. Demai is a
gezeira; if tevel were the norm, it would be azlinan basar ruba, or
at best safeiq deOraisa lehachmir.

: the question isn't what the majority would have done on their own,
: but whether BK forced them to obey halacha, and the Rambam assumes
: he did.

The Rambam doesn't say so. That's your deduction. It requires assuming
that the Rambam agrees with R' Aqiva over what the grounds for presuming
(making a chazqah) that someone is moshiach. He doesn't say R' Aqiva is
indeed his source.

And it also requires assuming R Aqiva was following BK because of a
chazaqah, rather than probability and rov. You haven't addressed my
"maybe" of R Aqiva following BK without BK having yet fulfilled all of
the moshiach's role becuase of an expectation that BK would be getting
there. My added "not yet".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

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