[Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 06:38:18AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
: The Rambam certainly believes that some midrashim are factual and
: historical...

But not the fantastical ones.

Zev and I are arguing over two things:

1- What that includes. Zev believes that the inclusion of miracles does
not make a medrash fantastical. And in fact to believe so be apiqursus.
(Actually, Zev said the believer would be an apiqoreis; but the question
whether every believer in apiqursus is necessarily an apiqoreis is far
afield. So I'll still to this less controversial subset of his claim.)

I disagree. The Rambam associates nissim with nevu'ah. Someone who
lacks the yedi'ah to get one isn't going to be around to witness
the other. Therefore, aggadic stories of miracles placed after Tanakh
are fantastical. While Hashem could still in principle perform nissim,
the Rambam believes He wouldn't. (Even when the story is told of a member
of chazal and their level of ruach haqodesh.)

2- Is there a default? Zev understands that the default is to take a
medrash historically, unless it must be ruled out.

Again, I disagree. Medrashim are described as metaphors and riddles. The
story and its historical content just isn't an issue. You can't assume
anything about a medrash being historical or ahistorical qua medrash.
A good bit of history and a good tall tale can be used equally well for
teaching by metaphor. Implying, you would need outside reason to assume
one or the other.

Which is how the Rambam then says that if the story doesn't fit how
the world works physically, metaphysicall or theologically -- ie
what that translation I googled up called "fantastic" -- insisting its
historical when it can't be is silly.

So:
: Since that's the case there, one could reasonably assume that there are
: other midrashim he also takes to be factual, so I can't see how you could
: attribute to the Rambam a position of all midrashim being non-literal.

Be happy, no one in this conversation does.

In my understanding of Zev's view, the Rambam says that any medrash
that isn't impossible (and nissim are possible) should be assumed to
be historical.

In my view, wondering about the historicity of the story misses the whole
point of medrash. But if the story does not fit the way Hashem runs the
universe -- which according to the Rambam would include miracle stories
happening after Malakhi, and many of the stories before -- assume it
is ahistorical.

: early life as a historical narrative (in the old fashioned sense) at
: the beginning of Hilchos AZ. That material is not brought there for
: any other reason than to understand the historical facts.

The Rambam there has outside reason to believe that medrashic description;
it fit what the Nabatean Agriculture implied abot the birth of their
religion.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
micha at aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
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