[Avodah] [Areivim] Better to die

[Ben Bradley via Avodah]

From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
Sent: 27 April 2017 13:13
...
> In it, a man was so love-sick for a woman that he would die unless he
> could speak to her; at least through a fence...

>     Bishloma according to the man da'amar she was an eishes ish,
>     shapir.
>     But according to the MdA she was penuyah -- mah kulei hai?
...
> So what's the exchange saying? That it is yeihareig ve'al ya'avor
> because of the consequent peritzus? Or that bishloma an eishes ish
> would be YvAY, but a penyah, who isn't, why wouldn't the guy be
> allowed to speak to her?

Of note, that gemara is brought in Rambam Yesodei HaTorah in the context
of acheiving cure for illness through hana'as issur. Meaning that it's
not a halacha of gilui arayos per se, rather hana'as issur. He paskens
it's assur even with a pnuya so that bnos yisrael won't be hefker.
No mention of pgam mishpacha.


(Parenthetically this seems to be an din of yeihareig v'al ya'avor
midrabannon (so that bnos yisrael etc..). Any other such cases? I'd
assumed YvAY is always d'oirasa, almost by definition)


The focus in the gemara and even more so in Rambam's context is someone
who's smitten. In that case even a conversation will give hana'as
issur. In fact that's the only reason the conversation is being sought.

There is no suggestion that conversation in any normal situation is an
issur hana'a per se, so therefore is not assur, certainly not Yeihareig
V'al Yaavor.

Therefore can't see how this gemara would be relevant to the army issue
any more than the familiar dinim of r'eiyas einayim, kirva l'arayos etc
which are no less relevant in the workplace and on the street.

[Email #2. -micha]

On further reflection, the chiddush of the gemara (at least the man d'amar
pnyua), and it's a big one, seems to be that chazal were so concerned
with hana'as issur arayos that they were even gozer YvAY on an hana'as
arayos d'rabbanon ie a pnyua.

Nonetheless the whole gemara is still only relevant to a case of clear
hana'as issur.

Ben