[Avodah] maharat

[Noam Stadlan via Avodah]

R. Micha. ok, now we are making progress.  You are engaging in a
theoretical discussion of Semicha, and I am simply looking at the OU
rabbi's argument against women serving as rabbi's of shuls. (they were not
arguing against specific wording on a claf, they were arguing
against holding a specific position).  Given what you wrote, we both agree
that the OU argument against does not hold water.  Even if they are
technically correct that women cannot have 'Mosaic semicha' they can give
hora'ah and have some sort of modern semicha that recognizes that they are
capable of doing so(even if according to you they actually do not need
permission from their rav).
Regarding the issue of women and hora'ah, it isn't just the sefer hachinuch
who says it is fine, but also R. Isaac Herzog, R. Uziel, R.
Bakshi-Doron(who clearly says that women can give hora'ah even if in a
later letter he is opposed to women clergy for tzniut reasons, it doesn't
invalidate the hora'ah position), the Birkei Yosef, and Pitchei teshuva and
others.   Furthermore, many, including R. Lichtenstein(quoting the Rav)
have noted that hora'ah in the modern age is different than previous, and
the authority is in the sources, not the person.

You actually have undercut another one of the OU arguments.  You have
admitted that the issue of women semicha has not been considered until
recently.  So their claim that it was considered and rejected is not only
poorly argued(see R. Jeffrey Fox's analysis), but historically wrong.

(and by the way, I think it is very important, if you are making an
arguement, that it be consistent.  So if you are claiming that the reason
women are forbidden from being dayannim is that they are forbidden from
being considered HL, then you have to explain the ramifications, including
that it seemingly means that they can by dayannim as hedyotot.  you cant
have it both ways).

Regarding 'giving legitimacy to egalitarian yearnings.'  Please read the
article by R. Walter Wurzburger that I linked to earlier.  He makes it very
clear that the balance of values within Halacha change over time, and that
external 'modern values' are an important part of that.  Modern values are
neither positive nor negative. Those that find resonance in the Mesorah are
elevated.  R. Nachum Rabinovitch and R. Lichtenstein point out that our
goal is to make moral progress.

You and others keep saying this is 'egalitarian yearnings'.   It isn't
about doing what the men do. It is about not placing non-halachic barriers
to people who want to serve God in a halachically permissible fashion.  As
R. Shalom Carmy wrote, it is about a Biblical sense of justice.  I happen
to be married to a Maharat student and personally know many of them and
their teachers.  It is the ultimate in hubris and mansplaining for you and
the others to claim to know what their motivation is.  It was
reprehensible of the OU panel to claim to know what the motivation is when
they failed to talk to anyone actually involved in the enterprise.

Even if we incorrectly grant that it is due to 'egalitarian yearnings,' is
that wrong? I suggest that our Mesorah has incorporated egalitarian
yearnings.  The mishnah in Horiyyot says that we save a man's life before a
woman's.  I doubt that there are many in the MO world who would pasken that
way, and those that would probably would give all sorts of apologetics and
rationalizations for it. (I am aware of the different shitot, and know that
RSZA for example gave so many other rationales to decide that even though
l'halacha he held this, there were so many other bases for deciding ahead
of gender that practically it never would have been applicable.) Even the
OU panel said that we value women the same as men.

Everyone agrees that there are Halachic differences between men and women.
The question is, are you trying to make the number of differences as large
or as small as possible?  Because as we have decided above, if we go by
strict halacha, there is no problem with women serving as shul rabbis.  is
it a value to have differences, and because you want to have differences,
you are going to prohibit women from doing things?  Just to have
differences?

There are differences between Jews and Converts.  Is it a Halachic value to
maximize the differences, or minimize the differences between Jew and
Gerim? R. Moshe wrote that a convert can be a Rosh Yeshiva because serarah
is not a problem.  Would he have agreed that a women can be a Rosh Yeshiva
because serarah is also not a problem for her?  (rosh yeshiva does not
require semicha).  Mishpat echad yehiyeh lachem, ka-ger ka-ezrach.

The OU paper brought up tzniut.  I do not think that the MO community
thinks that properly dressed and acting men and women consititute a
violation of tzniut.  So there is no violation of tzniut when women or
men perform the functions of clergy on their side of the mechitzah(one
could designate a man to take of things on the men's side of the mechitzah
if you were worried about interactions across the mechitzah).   if you are
claiming that this is a tzniut problem, then it applies to every
interaction of women and men, inside the shul and outside.  The OU paper
claimed that a synagogue required greater tzniut, and therefore women cant
perform rabbinical duties.  That is a non-sequitor.  First of all, it hasnt
been demonstrated that appropriately dressed and acting people are a
problem with tzniut. and, why is this particular action the one picked to
fulfill the mandate of more tzniut? perhaps the men fulfilling EH 21 would
be a better starting place.

I understand you and others not being comfortable with ordination for
women. no one is asking for you to be comfortable with it.  If you dont
think it is a good idea(halacha v'ain mori'in kein), that is fine to say.
But it isn't fine to say that Halacha bans it when it doesn't, and it isn't
ok to try to kick people who are shomrei Torah u'mitzvot out of the tent
because of your comfort or lack of comfort.  I would hope that you are at
least as uncomfortable with some of the people on the far right wing.  No
one is asking for you to go to their shul, ask them a shailah, or learn
their Torah if you dont want to.
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