[Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah
Ben Bradley via Avodah
avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Tue Jun 6 03:08:45 PDT 2017
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
> distinction?
I heard from Rav Matis Weinberg that the final reference to Ruth Hamoavia emphasises that, despite the way we usually think of geirus, and despite everything she's gone through, she remains a Moavia. Meaning that she retains her Moavi roots and personal context, and brings the positive from that into Klal Yisrael. I understand him as polemicising against the tendency to destroy ones previous identity, consciously or otherwise, in order to join the Jewish world either as a ger or a baal teshuva.
Ben
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Maharat (Rich, Joel via Avodah)
2. Re: Maharat (Ben Waxman via Avodah)
3. Re: Maharat (Akiva Miller via Avodah)
4. matched soldier and praying for them (M Cohen via Avodah)
5. Re: Maharat (Ilana Elzufon via Avodah)
6. Elimelech's land (Akiva Miller via Avodah)
7. Ruth Hamoaviah (Akiva Miller via Avodah)
8. Re: Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros? (ADE via Avodah)
9. Re: Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros?
(Zev Sero via Avodah)
10. A Holiday Afterthought (Cantor Wolberg via Avodah)
11. Re: A Holiday Afterthought (Micha Berger via Avodah)
12. Re: Ruth Hamoaviah (Zev Sero via Avodah)
13. Re: Ruth Hamoaviah (Lisa Liel via Avodah)
14. Re: Elimelech's land (Ben Waxman via Avodah)
15. Re: Elimelech's land (Zev Sero via Avodah)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:06:28 +0000
From: "Rich, Joel via Avodah" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: 'Ilana Elzufon' <ilanasober at gmail.com>, "'The Avodah Torah
Discussion Group'" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, Micha Berger
<micha at aishdas.org>, "Akiva Miller" <akivagmiller at gmail.com>, Avodah
<avodah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat
Message-ID:
<550c503804d54cb990c680ad2b42fa05 at VW2K8NYCEXMBX4.segal.segalco.com>
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Yes! But on the other hand, most of us also live in an "outside world" that is highly egalitarian. I think many of us, perhaps without conscious thought, have an egalitarian relationship with our spouse that would have been very rare a few generations ago. We aren't going to give up voting, or having our own bank accounts, or attending top universities, or entering just about whatever profession we like (as long as it isn't rabbi, sofer, chazan, etc...). And I don't think it is wrong for those changes in the experiences of women and couples and families and communities to affect religious practice, to move us in a somewhat more egalitarian direction WITHIN what is halachically permitted.
----------------------------------------------------
Would it be correct to say that the general case of this argument is that as long as it can be argued that something is halachically permitted (which many seem to define as not totally halachically forbidden by r?mb?s black letter law), then we can accept it without asking whether HKB?H prefers it? If the answer is no but he does prefer it (for all or subgroup is another question), then why do we spend so much of the debate on black letter law?
KT
Joel Rich (full disclosure-kach mkublani mbeit avi abba-not everything that is permitted to you should be done)
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:22:13 +0200
From: Ben Waxman via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Ilana Elzufon <ilanasober at gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>,
Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>, Avodah <avodah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat
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Probably the best and most succinct historical analogy I've seen for
this question.
Ben
On 5/29/2017 11:51 PM, Ilana Elzufon via Avodah wrote:
>
> Twenty years ago, I used to say that I wasn't sure if Orthodox women
> rabbis would end up being a "mechitza issue" or a "sermon in the
> vernacular issue." Today, at least from my position in Israel, it
> seems to be shaping up as the latter.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:59:33 -0400
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: avodah at aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat
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R' Noam Stadlan asked:
: The other point which really hasn't been adequately unravelled is whether
: semicha is synonymous with heter hora'ah? something different? can someone
: have heter hora'ah and not semicha?
I agree that an answer to this is crucial to the conversation.
Many times, people have told me that the author of the Mishne Berura
did not get semicha until very late in life when he needed the
ordination for some government paperwork. And yet, he was quite
involved with hora'ah, and we rely on his paskening even today. How
can this be? Dare we imagine that he did such things unauthorizedly?
Certainly he must have had/received some sort of Heter Hora'ah. If so,
then when and how did he get it - and without getting semicha at the
same time?
Akiva Miller
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:22:01 -0400
From: M Cohen via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, <avodah-request at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] matched soldier and praying for them
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A while ago on Avodah, a well known (chareidi) Baal machshava was quoted as
disagreeing strongly with the concept of matching frum people with a nonfrum
soldier in order to pray for them.
"we have no brotherhood with secular Israelis"
Recently, I posted to Avodah a link to a collection of 1400 short tshuvot
from HaRav Shlomo Miller Shlitah (of Toronto)
On the above topic, he writes there..
#600 Pray As They Go
Q. There are two organizations here in Eretz Yisroel, one called; Elef
LaMateh, and the other; The Shmirah Project. Basically, their intent is to
match Israeli soldiers with Avreichim and bochurim learning. Each Avreich
and Bochur who volunteers, receives the name of a specific soldier (his name
and his mother's name) that he takes responsibility to daven for and learn
specially for so that in the merit of the tefillos and learning, that
soldier will merit to return home alive and well. (Is this a good idea)
A. HaRav Shlomo Miller Shlit'a opinion is that it is a great mitzvah to
pray, learn Torah and accomplish mitzvos for the benefit of all our brethren
B'nay Yisroel in times of peril and need, especially for those who put their
life in harm's way to save and protect others.
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:39:53 +0200
From: Ilana Elzufon via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: "Rich, Joel" <JRich at sibson.com>
Cc: Avodah <avodah at aishdas.org>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>, Akiva
Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat
Message-ID:
<CAMAqeE49Jq_GvO_gxBnGVrNS4oLkAgDeTtyauGeWoWyehi5Kfg at mail.gmail.com>
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Me: ...most of us also live in an "outside world" that is highly
egalitarian...And I don't think it is wrong for those changes in the
experiences of women and couples and families and communities to affect
religious practice, to move us in a somewhat more egalitarian direction
WITHIN what is halachically permitted.
RJR: Would it be correct to say that the general case of this argument is
that as long as it can be argued that something is halachically permitted
(which many seem to define as not totally halachically forbidden by r?mb?s
black letter law), then we can accept it without asking whether HKB?H
prefers it?
Me: No!!! But does HKB"H really prefer that psak and practice should be
identical for each community and each generation?
- Ilana
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:01:50 -0400
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: avodah at aishdas.org
Subject: [Avodah] Elimelech's land
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.
I expect that this thread will have little or nothing to do with the
halachic questions we discussed recently. I am asking questions that I
think are based on purely financial and economic considerations:
Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for
Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start
farming?
I suppose it was pretty desolate after a ten-year famine, but did she
even try? She must have at least gone there to see the place, if for
no other reason than to be sure that no squatters took over while she
was gone. Without making sure of such things, how could she even hope
that anyone (even a goel) would buy it?
Maybe she expected to get a better profit from Boaz than she'd get
from farming it herself, but maybe there are other answers?
Akiva Miller
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:05:01 -0400
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: avodah at aishdas.org
Subject: [Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah
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<CABiM0cLMo6Zn5bZarY08GH9i+FZ4WyGwNP3p2OzYraTnbFNfPQ at mail.gmail.com>
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Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
distinction?
When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the
description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back
and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on
this.
Akiva Miller
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 10:14:59 +0100
From: ADE via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros?
Message-ID:
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Not sure how this solves the difficulty, the people who do this are still
being machshiv some pesukim over others.
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah <
avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> Everywhere I've been, the baal korei stops and people stand up one pasuk
> *before* the 10 dibros and the shira, specifically for this reason.
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 06:32:23 -0400
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: ADE <9006168 at gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros?
Message-ID: <510d4fd4-6c91-fb85-0c23-f6cdfa7ffcbf at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 02/06/17 05:14, ADE wrote:
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Everywhere I've been, the baal korei stops and people stand up one
>> pasuk *before* the 10 dibros and the shira, specifically for this
>> reason.
> Not sure how this solves the difficulty, the people who do this are
> still being machshiv some pesukim over others.
There is no requirement to treat all pesukim exactly the same. One is
entitled to stand or sit during KhT as one wishes, and has no obligation
to choose one policy and stick to it. The problem is only with standing
up for special pesukim, such as Shma or the 10D. Since there's nothing
special about the pasuk before the 10D, there's no problem with deciding
to stand for it. And when the special pesukim come along one is already
standing, so one has no obligation to sit down.
--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
zev at sero.name be a brilliant year for us all
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:46:10 -0400
From: Cantor Wolberg via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] A Holiday Afterthought
Message-ID: <30AFE2B8-8415-4327-A5ED-FD4856D72C50 at cox.net>
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In our personal religious commitments there are those among
us scrupulous in performance of the ceremonial mitzvot but at
the same time displaying reckless disregard of our elementary
duties towards our fellowman. Halacha embraces human life
in its totality. One of the great Lithuanian mussar sages made
a fascinating remark that it is much easier to complete the study
of the entire Babylonian Talmud than to extricate a single anti-social
trait from our behavior!
A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits.
Anonymous
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 11:31:31 -0400
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolberg at cox.net>, The Avodah Torah
Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] A Holiday Afterthought
Message-ID: <20170602153131.GA15356 at aishdas.org>
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On Thu, Jun 01, 2017 at 09:46:10PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: One of the great Lithuanian mussar sages made
: a fascinating remark that it is much easier to complete the study
: of the entire Babylonian Talmud than to extricate a single anti-social
: trait from our behavior!
Rabbi Yisrael Salanter, among the aphorisms of his listed in R' Dov
Katz's Tenu'as haMussar vol I.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:28:00 -0400
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>,
"akivagmiller at gmail.com >> Akiva Miller" <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah
Message-ID: <4dd6e4f1-2d00-a274-ace0-e5d2a803039a at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 01/06/17 23:05, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
> distinction?
>
> When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the
> description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back
> and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on
> this.
I only see four instances of "Ruth Hamoaviah", three in ch 2, and only
one in ch 4, in Boaz's description of the situation to Tov. Since his
purpose was to scare him off, it made sense to mention her origin, so
Tov would be reluctant to risk his future.
--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
zev at sero.name be a brilliant year for us all
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 11:20:16 +0300
From: Lisa Liel via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, avodah at aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah
Message-ID: <d40f8b0f-d275-9967-525c-0f90e14af526 at starways.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 6/2/2017 6:05 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
> distinction?
>
> When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the
> description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back
> and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on
> this.
I can't cite a source for it, but I remember once reading that Ruth
HaMoaviah was intended to praise her, since she gave up her position in
Moav to join us.
Lisa
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 12:31:41 +0200
From: Ben Waxman via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, avodah at aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Elimelech's land
Message-ID: <d128843f-b283-9f28-5c94-43c319790285 at zahav.net.il>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Actually if the land had lied fallow for 10 years, it should be in good
shape. Granted it needs weeding but the soil should be good. It only
requires a relatively small amount of rain for grass to grow and
re-invigorate the soil.
Maybe she was too old to work the land and figured that a sale would
provide her with enough money to live out the rest of her days in dignity?
Ben
On 6/2/2017 5:01 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for
> Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start
> farming?
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:17:52 -0400
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, Akiva Miller
<akivagmiller at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Elimelech's land
Message-ID: <272b8698-d5c1-55a1-560b-2bc6d0c39b74 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 01/06/17 23:01, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for
> Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start
> farming?
It seems to me that finding a buyer for the property was not at all
important to her, and in fact she had shown no interest in doing so
until she saw how she could use it to get Boaz to marry Ruth. It was
Boaz who spun the story out for Tov in order to scare him off; first he
drew him in with the prospect of an easy transaction for Naomi's portion
of the field, but then he threw in the Ruth monkey wrench.
--
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
zev at sero.name be a brilliant year for us all
------------------------------
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