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<pre>> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the
> distinction?</pre>
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<div><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span><span style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">I heard from Rav Matis Weinberg that the final reference to Ruth Hamoavia emphasises that, despite the way we usually think of geirus,
and despite everything she's gone through, she remains a Moavia. Meaning that she retains her Moavi roots and personal context, and brings the positive from that into Klal Yisrael. I understand him as polemicising against the tendency to destroy ones previous
identity, consciously or otherwise, in order to join the Jewish world either as a ger or a baal teshuva. </span></div>
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<p>Ben</p>
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<b>Sent:</b> 02 June 2017 03:34<br>
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(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Maharat (Rich, Joel via Avodah)<br>
2. Re: Maharat (Ben Waxman via Avodah)<br>
3. Re: Maharat (Akiva Miller via Avodah)<br>
4. matched soldier and praying for them (M Cohen via Avodah)<br>
5. Re: Maharat (Ilana Elzufon via Avodah)<br>
6. Elimelech's land (Akiva Miller via Avodah)<br>
7. Ruth Hamoaviah (Akiva Miller via Avodah)<br>
8. Re: Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros? (ADE via Avodah)<br>
9. Re: Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros?<br>
(Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
10. A Holiday Afterthought (Cantor Wolberg via Avodah)<br>
11. Re: A Holiday Afterthought (Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
12. Re: Ruth Hamoaviah (Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
13. Re: Ruth Hamoaviah (Lisa Liel via Avodah)<br>
14. Re: Elimelech's land (Ben Waxman via Avodah)<br>
15. Re: Elimelech's land (Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:06:28 +0000<br>
From: "Rich, Joel via Avodah" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: 'Ilana Elzufon' <ilanasober@gmail.com>, "'The Avodah Torah<br>
Discussion Group'" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, Micha Berger<br>
<micha@aishdas.org>, "Akiva Miller" <akivagmiller@gmail.com>, Avodah<br>
<avodah@aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<550c503804d54cb990c680ad2b42fa05@VW2K8NYCEXMBX4.segal.segalco.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
<br>
Yes! But on the other hand, most of us also live in an "outside world" that is highly egalitarian. I think many of us, perhaps without conscious thought, have an egalitarian relationship with our spouse that would have been very rare a few generations ago.
We aren't going to give up voting, or having our own bank accounts, or attending top universities, or entering just about whatever profession we like (as long as it isn't rabbi, sofer, chazan, etc...). And I don't think it is wrong for those changes in the
experiences of women and couples and families and communities to affect religious practice, to move us in a somewhat more egalitarian direction WITHIN what is halachically permitted.<br>
----------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Would it be correct to say that the general case of this argument is that as long as it can be argued that something is halachically permitted (which many seem to define as not totally halachically forbidden by r?mb?s black letter law), then we can accept
it without asking whether HKB?H prefers it? If the answer is no but he does prefer it (for all or subgroup is another question), then why do we spend so much of the debate on black letter law?<br>
KT<br>
Joel Rich (full disclosure-kach mkublani mbeit avi abba-not everything that is permitted to you should be done)<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:22:13 +0200<br>
From: Ben Waxman via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Ilana Elzufon <ilanasober@gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion<br>
Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>,<br>
Akiva Miller <akivagmiller@gmail.com>, Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat<br>
Message-ID: <b5e9d2ee-642e-5695-6795-513004d8c920@zahav.net.il><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Probably the best and most succinct historical analogy I've seen for <br>
this question.<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
On 5/29/2017 11:51 PM, Ilana Elzufon via Avodah wrote:<br>
><br>
> Twenty years ago, I used to say that I wasn't sure if Orthodox women <br>
> rabbis would end up being a "mechitza issue" or a "sermon in the <br>
> vernacular issue." Today, at least from my position in Israel, it <br>
> seems to be shaping up as the latter.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 16:59:33 -0400<br>
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: avodah@aishdas.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CABiM0cLXKR3Yde5M8WTSHZVQQ=_rcTVG9Hj+ZStsFkNHf9D7aQ@mail.gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
R' Noam Stadlan asked:<br>
<br>
: The other point which really hasn't been adequately unravelled is whether<br>
: semicha is synonymous with heter hora'ah? something different? can someone<br>
: have heter hora'ah and not semicha?<br>
<br>
I agree that an answer to this is crucial to the conversation.<br>
<br>
Many times, people have told me that the author of the Mishne Berura<br>
did not get semicha until very late in life when he needed the<br>
ordination for some government paperwork. And yet, he was quite<br>
involved with hora'ah, and we rely on his paskening even today. How<br>
can this be? Dare we imagine that he did such things unauthorizedly?<br>
Certainly he must have had/received some sort of Heter Hora'ah. If so,<br>
then when and how did he get it - and without getting semicha at the<br>
same time?<br>
<br>
Akiva Miller<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2017 13:22:01 -0400<br>
From: M Cohen via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, <avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: [Avodah] matched soldier and praying for them<br>
Message-ID: <014801d2d969$41c5c800$c5515800$@com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
A while ago on Avodah, a well known (chareidi) Baal machshava was quoted as<br>
disagreeing strongly with the concept of matching frum people with a nonfrum<br>
soldier in order to pray for them.<br>
<br>
"we have no brotherhood with secular Israelis"<br>
<br>
Recently, I posted to Avodah a link to a collection of 1400 short tshuvot<br>
from HaRav Shlomo Miller Shlitah (of Toronto)<br>
<br>
On the above topic, he writes there..<br>
<br>
#600 Pray As They Go<br>
<br>
Q. There are two organizations here in Eretz Yisroel, one called; Elef<br>
LaMateh, and the other; The Shmirah Project. Basically, their intent is to<br>
match Israeli soldiers with Avreichim and bochurim learning. Each Avreich<br>
and Bochur who volunteers, receives the name of a specific soldier (his name<br>
and his mother's name) that he takes responsibility to daven for and learn<br>
specially for so that in the merit of the tefillos and learning, that<br>
soldier will merit to return home alive and well. (Is this a good idea)<br>
<br>
A. HaRav Shlomo Miller Shlit'a opinion is that it is a great mitzvah to<br>
pray, learn Torah and accomplish mitzvos for the benefit of all our brethren<br>
B'nay Yisroel in times of peril and need, especially for those who put their<br>
life in harm's way to save and protect others.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:39:53 +0200<br>
From: Ilana Elzufon via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com><br>
Cc: Avodah <avodah@aishdas.org>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>, Akiva<br>
Miller <akivagmiller@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Maharat<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAMAqeE49Jq_GvO_gxBnGVrNS4oLkAgDeTtyauGeWoWyehi5Kfg@mail.gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Me: ...most of us also live in an "outside world" that is highly<br>
egalitarian...And I don't think it is wrong for those changes in the<br>
experiences of women and couples and families and communities to affect<br>
religious practice, to move us in a somewhat more egalitarian direction<br>
WITHIN what is halachically permitted.<br>
<br>
RJR: Would it be correct to say that the general case of this argument is<br>
that as long as it can be argued that something is halachically permitted<br>
(which many seem to define as not totally halachically forbidden by r?mb?s<br>
black letter law), then we can accept it without asking whether HKB?H<br>
prefers it?<br>
<br>
Me: No!!! But does HKB"H really prefer that psak and practice should be<br>
identical for each community and each generation?<br>
<br>
- Ilana<br>
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Message: 6<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:01:50 -0400<br>
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: avodah@aishdas.org<br>
Subject: [Avodah] Elimelech's land<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CABiM0c+CmgwrnyaThKtq_COvhteRvtpLJutoL2WpUtX3uyO=dg@mail.gmail.com><br>
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<br>
.<br>
I expect that this thread will have little or nothing to do with the<br>
halachic questions we discussed recently. I am asking questions that I<br>
think are based on purely financial and economic considerations:<br>
<br>
Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for<br>
Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start<br>
farming?<br>
<br>
I suppose it was pretty desolate after a ten-year famine, but did she<br>
even try? She must have at least gone there to see the place, if for<br>
no other reason than to be sure that no squatters took over while she<br>
was gone. Without making sure of such things, how could she even hope<br>
that anyone (even a goel) would buy it?<br>
<br>
Maybe she expected to get a better profit from Boaz than she'd get<br>
from farming it herself, but maybe there are other answers?<br>
<br>
Akiva Miller<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 23:05:01 -0400<br>
From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: avodah@aishdas.org<br>
Subject: [Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CABiM0cLMo6Zn5bZarY08GH9i+FZ4WyGwNP3p2OzYraTnbFNfPQ@mail.gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"<br>
<br>
Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is<br>
described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the<br>
distinction?<br>
<br>
When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the<br>
description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back<br>
and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on<br>
this.<br>
<br>
Akiva Miller<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 10:14:59 +0100<br>
From: ADE via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAJn_3bVJCPEoTx3EJJqzg-u0RvtU9hp8LZT0g3WhCvpmjQJ5vA@mail.gmail.com><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Not sure how this solves the difficulty, the people who do this are still<br>
being machshiv some pesukim over others.<br>
<br>
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah <<br>
avodah@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> Everywhere I've been, the baal korei stops and people stand up one pasuk<br>
> *before* the 10 dibros and the shira, specifically for this reason.<br>
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Message: 9<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 06:32:23 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: ADE <9006168@gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Should one stand for the Aseres Hadibros?<br>
Message-ID: <510d4fd4-6c91-fb85-0c23-f6cdfa7ffcbf@sero.name><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 02/06/17 05:14, ADE wrote:<br>
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 1:17 PM, Zev Sero wrote:<br>
<br>
>> Everywhere I've been, the baal korei stops and people stand up one <br>
>> pasuk *before* the 10 dibros and the shira, specifically for this <br>
>> reason.<br>
<br>
> Not sure how this solves the difficulty, the people who do this are<br>
> still being machshiv some pesukim over others.<br>
<br>
There is no requirement to treat all pesukim exactly the same. One is <br>
entitled to stand or sit during KhT as one wishes, and has no obligation <br>
to choose one policy and stick to it. The problem is only with standing <br>
up for special pesukim, such as Shma or the 10D. Since there's nothing <br>
special about the pasuk before the 10D, there's no problem with deciding <br>
to stand for it. And when the special pesukim come along one is already <br>
standing, so one has no obligation to sit down.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,<br>
zev@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 10<br>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 21:46:10 -0400<br>
From: Cantor Wolberg via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: [Avodah] A Holiday Afterthought<br>
Message-ID: <30AFE2B8-8415-4327-A5ED-FD4856D72C50@cox.net><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
In our personal religious commitments there are those among <br>
us scrupulous in performance of the ceremonial mitzvot but at<br>
the same time displaying reckless disregard of our elementary<br>
duties towards our fellowman. Halacha embraces human life<br>
in its totality. One of the great Lithuanian mussar sages made <br>
a fascinating remark that it is much easier to complete the study<br>
of the entire Babylonian Talmud than to extricate a single anti-social<br>
trait from our behavior!<br>
<br>
A quitter never wins, and a winner never quits.<br>
Anonymous<br>
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Message: 11<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 11:31:31 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net>, The Avodah Torah<br>
Discussion Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] A Holiday Afterthought<br>
Message-ID: <20170602153131.GA15356@aishdas.org><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Thu, Jun 01, 2017 at 09:46:10PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:<br>
: One of the great Lithuanian mussar sages made <br>
: a fascinating remark that it is much easier to complete the study<br>
: of the entire Babylonian Talmud than to extricate a single anti-social<br>
: trait from our behavior!<br>
<br>
Rabbi Yisrael Salanter, among the aphorisms of his listed in R' Dov<br>
Katz's Tenu'as haMussar vol I.<br>
<br>
:-)BBii!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 12<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:28:00 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>,<br>
"akivagmiller@gmail.com >> Akiva Miller" <akivagmiller@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah<br>
Message-ID: <4dd6e4f1-2d00-a274-ace0-e5d2a803039a@sero.name><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
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On 01/06/17 23:05, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:<br>
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is<br>
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the<br>
> distinction?<br>
> <br>
> When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the<br>
> description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back<br>
> and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on<br>
> this.<br>
<br>
I only see four instances of "Ruth Hamoaviah", three in ch 2, and only <br>
one in ch 4, in Boaz's description of the situation to Tov. Since his <br>
purpose was to scare him off, it made sense to mention her origin, so <br>
Tov would be reluctant to risk his future.<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,<br>
zev@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all<br>
<br>
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Message: 13<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 11:20:16 +0300<br>
From: Lisa Liel via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller@gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion<br>
Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, avodah@aishdas.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ruth Hamoaviah<br>
Message-ID: <d40f8b0f-d275-9967-525c-0f90e14af526@starways.net><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 6/2/2017 6:05 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:<br>
> Many times she is called simply "Ruth", and many times she is<br>
> described as "Ruth Hamoaviah". Is there any reason or pattern to the<br>
> distinction?<br>
><br>
> When I first thought of this question, I thought that perhaps the<br>
> description was dropped after her geirus, but the megillah goes back<br>
> and forth all the way through. Surely someone must have commented on<br>
> this.<br>
I can't cite a source for it, but I remember once reading that Ruth <br>
HaMoaviah was intended to praise her, since she gave up her position in <br>
Moav to join us.<br>
<br>
Lisa<br>
<br>
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Message: 14<br>
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2017 12:31:41 +0200<br>
From: Ben Waxman via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Akiva Miller <akivagmiller@gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion<br>
Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, avodah@aishdas.org<br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Elimelech's land<br>
Message-ID: <d128843f-b283-9f28-5c94-43c319790285@zahav.net.il><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Actually if the land had lied fallow for 10 years, it should be in good <br>
shape. Granted it needs weeding but the soil should be good. It only <br>
requires a relatively small amount of rain for grass to grow and <br>
re-invigorate the soil.<br>
<br>
Maybe she was too old to work the land and figured that a sale would <br>
provide her with enough money to live out the rest of her days in dignity?<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
On 6/2/2017 5:01 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:<br>
> Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for<br>
> Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start<br>
> farming?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Message: 15<br>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 00:17:52 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Akiva Miller via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, Akiva Miller<br>
<akivagmiller@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Elimelech's land<br>
Message-ID: <272b8698-d5c1-55a1-560b-2bc6d0c39b74@sero.name><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 01/06/17 23:01, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:<br>
<br>
> Why was is so important for Naomi to find a goel/redeemer for<br>
> Elimelech's land? Why didn't she just move back there and start<br>
> farming?<br>
It seems to me that finding a buyer for the property was not at all <br>
important to her, and in fact she had shown no interest in doing so <br>
until she saw how she could use it to get Boaz to marry Ruth. It was <br>
Boaz who spun the story out for Tov in order to scare him off; first he <br>
drew him in with the prospect of an easy transaction for Naomi's portion <br>
of the field, but then he threw in the Ruth monkey wrench.<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,<br>
zev@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all<br>
<br>
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