[Avodah] conservatism in davening

[Zev Sero via Avodah]

On 10/10/16 22:53, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:

> But in many cases, this has changed. For some reason, the people wanted
> to say the stanzas too, and not merely hear them from the chazan.
> Perhaps this happened when siddurim became cheap and easy-to-obtain; I
> don't remember if Rav Henkin gave any cause for it. But in any case,
> people ended up saying the paragraph prior to the chazan, and these are
> labeled "Kahal v'Chazan" - the people say it and then the chazan repeats.

I think that is basically what happened, but it's a *little* more
complicated.   For instance, the chazan would start "Ha'ochez beyad
midas mishpat", and everyone would answer "vechol ma'aminim shehu Kel
emunah", and then the chazan would say it too, so as not ch"v to exclude
himself from that "kol".  Then he would start the next line, "habochen
uvodek", etc.   The problem, I think, began when chazonim started
singing tunes that made the first part, i.e. the response to the last
call, and the second part, i.e. the next call, sound like they were
one continuous item.

Consider what usually happens in kedusha; the chazan says "Baruch kevod
Hashem mimekomo", in a tone that clearly indicates it's the end of a
sentence, and then begins "Mimekomo Hu yifen", in a tune or tone that
clearly shows it's a new thing. But imagine if they would start singing
from "Baruch kevod", and continue the tune right into "Mimekomo hu
yifen", so that it sounded like the continuation of "Baruch kevod".
People would start copying them and do it too, and the siddur printers
would then print it that way, and we'd be where we are now with the
piyutim.