[Avodah] KeViAs Seudah, MeZonos HaMotzi

Akiva Miller via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Fri Sep 23 04:45:54 PDT 2016


In the thread "Mezonos Becomes HaMotzi", I asked if any authorities specify
the kind of meal that is intended in the phrase "mezonos becomes hamotzi
when it is eaten as a meal", and I quoted some of what the Mishneh Berurah
writes in the context of Sukkah. R' Meir G. Rabi responded:

> The Mitzvah of Sukkah is defined by Teshvu KeEin TaDuru [TKTd]
> Its not the size of the meal nor the time quantity of any
> activity that defines what must be performed in the Sukkah. It
> is the perceived quality of that activity that makes TKTd.
>
> A hurried everyday lunch and a standard hurried breakfast, does
> not constitute TKTd because its not, *what we usually do* but
> what we perceive as respectable living, that defines TKTd.
>
> As R Akivah Miller said, the nature of the situation of "Pas
> Habaa B'Kisnin in the morning" constitutes Kevias Seudah for
> Hilchos Sukkah. I suggest this is not a hurried bite, but a
> proper unhurried meal for that time and place.

Hilchos Sukkah can shine much light on other suedah-related halachos. The
end of MB 639:16 quotes the Shaarei Teshuva, and he writes:

"On Shabbos and Yom Tov in the morning, when one makes Kiddush and eats Pas
Kisnin in place of the meal, ... all opinions allow saying Layshev
Basukkah. Since he is eating it to meet the legal requirements of a seudah
because of Kiddush, it's okay to say the bracha on the sukkah, because his
thoughts make it into "keva". During Chol [Hamoed], it is not appropriate
to say the bracha because of Safek Brachos L'hakel, but the Minhag HaOlam
is to say the bracha even during Chol [Hamoed]. In order to rescue oneself
from this possible Bracha L'vatala, one should make sure NOT to exit [the
sukkah] immediately after eating. Rather, he should sit there for some
time, and when he says the bracha of Layshev Basukkah, he should have in
mind both the eating and the sitting afterward."

This is quite similar to what RMGR wrote. It is unavoidably clear that a
hurried meal differs from a relaxed meal for TKTd.

On the other hand, that's only for Mezonos. As I read the MB, if the meal
is Hamotzi, then it does *not* matter whether it is hurried or relaxed.
Please carefully read MB 639:15, where he compares the two:

"If one is kovea on Mezonos, that is to say, he eats with a group, or he
eats a significant amount such as one makes a seudah of, and he is not
merely eating "a little more than a kebaytzah", [then it has to be in the
Sukkah -Mechaber]. However, see the Magen Avraham who questions this, and
his opinion is that it is exactly like bread, where a little more than a
kebaytzah obligates one in sukkah. But for saying the bracha of Layshev
Basukkah, the acharonim hold that one should not say the bracha unless he
is being kovea as written in Shulchan Aruch."

(By the way, the Mechaber here refers to two types of grain products as
"pas" and "tavshil". One might think that "tavshil" refers to only to
cooked foods like oatmeal or pasta, and that Pas Habaa B'kisnin would
either be included in "pas", or maybe it is a third category. However,
nothing I have seen suggests that there is a third category in Hilchos
Sukkah, and everything suggests that for Hilchos Sukkah, pas habaa b'kisnin
is exactly the same as oatmeal. Thus, while their vernacular was to label
these two categories as "pas" and "tavshil", those categories exactly match
to what our vernacular labels as "hamotzi" and "mezonos".)

Okay, enough with Hilchos Sukkah, let's get back to hilchos brachos.

Beur Halacha on this spot ("Im kovea alav, chashiv keva") compares Sukkah
to "mezonos becoming hamotzi". He writes that the determining criterion for
Sukkah is TKTd, and that this is very subjective: "Whatever HE is kovea on,
that's a kevius that needs a sukkah." But he refers us to Siman 168, where
this is *not* the rule for brachos. Rather, if one eats pas habaa b'kisnin
of an amount that PEOPLE are kovea on, that's when it becomes Hamotzi.

Therefore, we CANNOT use TKTd to enlighten us about mezonos becoming
hamotzi. We must determine how people in general consider it. And I don't
know if modern authorities have discussed this.

My personal opinion is that I usually eat three meals every day. Many of
those meals are pretty small, but if I consider myself to be a "three meal
per day" person, then I am implicitly defining "meal" to include small
meals. For reasons that are unclear even to me, I tend to draw the line
between "small meal" and "large snack" by the time of day. Many people will
say mezonos on a single slice of pizza, and hamotzi on three slices, and
they avoid eating two slices. I was once discussing this with someone, and
he said that if he ate two slices at noon he'd want to say hamotzi, and
that the same two slices at 3pm would be mezonos. I don't know if he ever
acted thusly, but my sentiments are the same.

It seems that RMGR would NOT consider me to be a "three meal per day"
person, and he is entitled to that opinion. I think it would be very nice
if we lived in a world where most people ate three "proper unhurried meals"
(as RMGR described them), but I think it is mostly aristocrats who live in
that world.

Or maybe I am looking at this too harshly. Do most meals in a fast-food
restaurant count as a  "quick bite", or are they sufficiently "proper and
unhurried"? I don't know. I have vague memories of a sefer that claimed
that Birkas HaMazon would not be d'Oraisa if one did not have some sort of
drink at the meal, because without the drink there is no "v'savata". I
can't help wonder if that is relevant to our subject. Suppose someone ate
the AMOUNT of Pas Habaa B'Kinsnin that would usually count as a meal, but
he ate it standing, without a table, and with no drink. This could easily
happen if someone had 3-4 slices of pizza at a shopping mall. Might it
still be mezonos?

Akiva Miller
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