[Avodah] Mourning an Abusive Parent
Aryeh Frimer via Avodah
avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Tue Aug 30 22:42:53 PDT 2016
I deal with the issue of Mourning an Abusive Parent in my Review of Joel Wolowelsky's book. "Review Essay: Insights into Mourning. A Review of Dr. Joel B. Wolowelsky's The Mind of the Mourner: Individual and Community in Jewish Mourning," Aryeh A. Frimer, Tradition, 44:4 (Winter 2011), pp. 41-46. PDF available online at http://traditionarchive.org/news/_pdfs/0041-0046.pdf. {The last note is a more recent addition}. I write as follows:
Perhaps the toughest - and to my mind, the most controversial - issue discussed by Dr. Wolowelsky is the question of mourning an abusive parent. The waters here are very much unchartered and the author deserves much kudos for bringing the issue to the fore. Clearly, there are degrees of abuse, ranging from harsh language up to repeated sexual assault. The author in this volume argues that even in the latter case of sexual abuse the child should be encouraged to mourn the parent. This is basically because of a debt of gratitude and, hence, respect that the child owes the parent for bringing him/her into this world. But there are important psychological reasons as well, which the author delineates. That being said, it is made clear that if the mourning practice would be detrimental to the emotional or psychological well-being of the abused child, this mourning may be forgone.
The many lines of reasoning - halakhic, philosophical and psychological - used by the author to buttress his position are beautifully interwoven and multifaceted. I have spoken to many psychologists who agree that "closure" is a central issue – as Wolowelsky argues. But this requires a case–by-case determination.
I would, however, like to focus in on two of the halakhic arguments presented by the author, with which I take issue.
(1) Based on Massekhet Semakot (2:10), Maimonides (M.T., Hilkhot Avel, 1:10) and R. Joseph Caro (Shulhan Arukh, YD, 345:5) rule that one who deviates from the practices of the community ("ha-poresh mi-darkei tsibbur") is not to be mourned.[1]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn1> The category of poresh mi-darkei tsibbur is understood by the commentators to include those who regularly violate halakha. Indeed, Rema (YD, sec. 340:5) reiterates that one who "regularly violates Jewish law is not mourned." Nevertheless, normative practice nowadays is to mourn all, irrespective of their level of religious observance. This rule should be extended to the abuser as well.
It would seem, however, to this reviewer, that the comparison is questionable if not improper. It is one thing to allow the community to honor an individual who may not be truly deserving; sadly, we do this all the time! It is totally a different matter to demand from the severely abused to pay homage to their unrepentant abuser – parent or not.[2]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn2> Judaism disapproves of revenge, but it does not require or even advise turning the other cheek. Furthermore, the reason given for not generally invoking the category poresh mi-darkei tsibbur is because most non-observant Jews are tinokot she-nishbu - uneducated in, and insensitive to the significance of religious practice.[3]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn3> On the contrary, the majority secular Jewish society as a whole often belittles the importance of kiyyum ha-mitsvot. By contrast, sexual abuse of one's progeny is acknowledged by all as a heinous transgression of universal morality. An individual guilty of such a crime is certainly way beyond the pale, and certainly falls into the category of those who "deviate from the practices of the community." To our mind, the author's suggestion, that the actions included in this category must be "done deliberately to outrage the community" (The Mind, p. 87), is creative - but without basis and support.
(2) The author cites R. Shabbetai haKohen (YD, 240:18, no. 20) who maintains that while one is not obligated to honor an evil parent, one may not cause them anguish. This is indeed an important argument when discussing the parameters of counseling an abused individual while the parent is still alive. These parameters are indeed discussed by the author and other scholars at length.[4]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn4> However, once the unrepentant sexually abusive parent has passed away, I find it hard to accept the suggestion that this could be an argument against abstaining from mourning him/her. In addition, airing serious abuse, rather than sweeping it under the carpet, will undoubtedly have a beneficial effect on the psychological well-being of the religious community as a whole;[5]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn5> the abused would be more willing to come forward for treatment and the abuser more rapidly exposed. Hence, such an act is certainly permitted, since it is le-to'elet (beneficial) and therapeutic.[6]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn6>
As noted above, the question of mourning an abusive parent is a truly complex issue – and unfortunately not one discussed at any length in published responsa. Much of the literature that is available are conference reports of the questions asked by religious psychologists from leading posekim – but not the responsa of the posekim themselves. Surveying the recent rabbinic literature has revealed two responsa not mentioned by the author, one by Rabbi Joseph Alnekaveh[7]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn7> and another published by Makhon Erets Hemda.[8]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn8> Considering the complexity of this issue, it is perhaps not surprising that they come to opposing positions on whether the abused child should be encouraged to publicly mourn the abusing parent.[9]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftn9>
________________________________
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref1> [1]. In actuality, Massekhet Semahot writes that "their brethren and relatives should wear white and … rejoice." Maimonides modifies this slightly by writing "their brethren and other relatives…." It would seem clear that Maimonides added the word "other" specifically to include all relatives, including parents and offspring, in the prohibition of mourning – contrary to Dr. Wolowelsky's suggestion (The Mind, top of p. 92). In addition, the term "bretheren" may refer to friends and distant relatives; see, for example: Genesis 13:8 and 19:6; Exodus 2:11; Judges 19:23.
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref2> [2]. Regarding hazara bi-teshuva, R. Dovid Cohen (Congregation Gvul Yaavetz, Brooklyn) maintains the following. A person who behaved in a manner that made him a rasha cannot simply say to bet din: "I did teshuva, so now you are obliged to accept me as a witness." Similarly, a parent who was deemed a rasha cannot merely say to his child "I did teshuva, so now you are obligated to treat me with respect." In both cases the person has to demonstrate, to the bet din or to the child, over time and in a consistent and convincing manner, that he has sincerely repented. See: R. Dovid Cohen cited by Benzion Sorotzkin, "Honoring Parents Who Are Abusive," Parts 1-3, The International Network of Orthodox Mental Health Professionals - NEFESH News (2004), note 10 therein; available online at: http://www.drsorotzkin.com/honoring_abusive_parents.html.
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref3> [3]. See, inter alia, R. Isaac Yosef, Yalkut Yosef, Hilkhot Bikur Holim ve-Avelut, sec. 16.
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref4> [4]. (a) Seymour Hoffman, "Psychotherapy and Honoring Parents," Israel Journal of Psychiatry & Related Sciences, 38:2 (2001), 123-126. (b) Seymour Hoffman, "Halacha and Psychological Treatment Dilemmas and Conflicts, ASSIA – Jewish Medical Ethics, 4:2 (2004), pp. 36-38; available online at: http://www.medethics.org.il/articles/JME/JMEB1/JMEB1.23.asp; (c) Benzion Sorotzkin, supra note 4.
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref5> [5]. See Benzion Sorotzkin, supra note 2 – Addendum to part 1, citing R. Dovid Cohen.
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref6> [6]. See the discussion in the references cited in note 6, supra.
<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref7> [7]. R. Joseph Alnekaveh, Kaddish al Av Akhzar, Makor Rishon, Dec, 29, 2009, p. 10 – encourages mourning practices in the case of a very abusive father (abuse not stipulated).
[8]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref8>. Responsa be-Mareh ha-Bazak, VII, sec. 83, pp. 247-249 – the sexually abused daughter may refrain from mourning
[9]<file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/DOC/Dvartora,Speech,Shiurim/Aveilut%20&%20Death/Insights%20into%20Mourning/Insights%20into%20Mourning%20Tradition%20FinalRev.doc#_ftnref9>. R. Eli Turkel (personal communication April 9, 2012) has informed me of a case of a father who had abandoned his family when his daughter was young. The latter did not want to sit shiva for her father and the psak that she received was that formally she had to sit shiva but there was no requirement for her to receive visitors. She was not sorry about his death and had no need for consolation. She simply posted an announcement that she was sitting shiva for her father, but had no hours for visiting. Recently (Nov. 25, 2012), Rabbi Samuel Shapiro, Rabbi of Kokhav Yair, discussed the case of a man that was abused sexually by his father when he was a child and bears tremendous anger against him. Although there is a three way dispute as to whether a son owes respect to a father who is a rasha, Rama rules that no respect is owed to the parent unless the latter repented. In this particular case, however, the child is the object of the wickedness; hence, the son is not to be expected to respect his father. See: http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4311136,00.html.
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Ethel and David Resnick Professor Emeritus
of Active Oxygen Chemistry
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL
E-mail (office): Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il
Homepage http://ch.biu.ac.il/frimer
Tel: 972-3-5318610; Fax: 972-3-7384053
Tel Home: 972-8-9473819/9470834
E-mail (home): FrimerA at zahav.net.il
Cellphone: 972-54-7540761
________________________________
From: Avodah <avodah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Micha Berger via Avodah)
2. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Harry Maryles via Avodah)
3. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Micha Berger via Avodah)
4. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah?
(Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah)
5. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah)
6. Re: aveilut for an abuser (Zev Sero via Avodah)
7. Some hot milk spilled on my fleishig counter and I would like
to kasher it. (Professor L. Levine via Avodah)
8. Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
(Eli Turkel via Avodah)
9. laws of nature (Eli Turkel via Avodah)
10. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
(Zev Sero via Avodah)
11. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
(Eli Turkel via Avodah)
12. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
(Zev Sero via Avodah)
13. Re: Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
(Micha Berger via Avodah)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 15:20:41 -0400
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Lisa Liel <lisa at starways.net>, Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
Message-ID: <20160829192041.GA27016 at aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 03:29:49PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
: Do the laws of aveilut change at all if a parent sexually abuses a
: child and the parent dies?
I have a friend, slighly different case. The child was not the victim,
and the father's violence was not expressed sexually. He was told by Rav
Reuven Feinstein that he was obligated to sit shiv'ah. But I must confess,
it was far from a somber shiv'ah house. The whole experience was weird.
But I would think that the pesaq in the case you give might not have a
general rule. What may be a piquach nefesh level sanity issue for one
victim might not be for another.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger A person must be very patient
micha at aishdas.org even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 21:51:20 +0000 (UTC)
From: Harry Maryles via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>, The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
Message-ID: <2038859858.1771128.1472507480770 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"
On Monday, August 29, 2016 3:59 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 03:29:49PM +0300, Lisa Liel via Avodah wrote:
>: Do the laws of aveilut change at all if a parent sexually abuses a
>: child and the parent dies?
> I have a friend, slighly different case. The child was not the victim,
> and the father's violence was not expressed sexually. He was told by Rav
> Reuven Feinstein that he was obligated to sit shiv'ah...
My son had a classmate (and good friend) in high school whose father
murdered his mother when he was a young child. His father went to jail. He
was raised by his grandmother and never spoke to his father again. When
his father died, he did not sit Shiva and and was not Noheg Aveilus
at all.
Was he right?
HM
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 18:21:03 -0400
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Harry Maryles <hmaryles at yahoo.com>
Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
Message-ID: <20160829222103.GC7550 at aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 09:51:20PM +0000, Harry Maryles wrote:
: My son had a classmate (and good friend) in high school whose father
: murdered his mother when he was a young child. His father went to jail. He
: was raised by his grandmother and never spoke to his father again. When
: his father died, he did not sit Shiva and and was not Noheg Aveilus
: at all.
: Was he right?
In the Hakira article RJR pointed RJBW first discusses aveilus.
He dismisses the emotional state of the aveil as a factor in the
chiyuv. Citing RYBS as saying halakhah demands a full emotional control
that may oftimes not actually be real. However, in the case where the
aveilus would be traumatic to the victim, that chiyuv may be overridden.
He also discusses aveilus for sinners -- porshim midrakhei tzibur (the
Rambam's case), habitual sinners. The SA and Mordekhai say we do morn
the occasional sinner, if acting letei'avon.
But then moving on to the chiyuv of kavod, kibud av is not haqaras
hatov. Famously, it is on the first luach because it's really a mitzvah
BALM; how one treats the two partners in his birth whom he can see,
impacts the kavod he gives the Third Partner whom he cannot.
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%209%20Wolowelsky.pdf
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger It's never too late
micha at aishdas.org to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - George Eliot
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 22:55:47 -0400
From: Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: "'Micha Berger'" <micha at aishdas.org>, "'The Avodah Torah
Discussion Group'" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, "'Professor L. Levine'"
<llevine at stevens.edu>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah?
Message-ID: <02bc01d2026a$02cb1be0$086153a0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
R' YL:
:> Does Daf Yomi meet the above definition of the ideal type of :> Talmud
Torah? That depends. If a person spends the proper amount :> of time on each
daf so that he can analyze it, understand it, and have :> it sink into his
memory so that he will not forget it, then obviously it :> does...
R'MB:
As I would put it, daf yomi's true value is in the number of magidei shiur
it requires, rather than the number of attendees. Prep alone means that more
gemara is really being learned than ever before.
In prior iterations, I noted what the AhS (YD 246:17) said about the
phenomena of shuls' chevrah shas -- same pace but without global
synchronization.
<SNIP>
-----------------------------
While I don't doubt that R' YL is correct in a perfect world, in an
imperfect world Daf Yomi is going to be the catalyst for many people who
otherwise wouldn't learn. Just the social aspect is significant, but the
built in deadline is crucial to making people want to keep up and not skip
even one day.
But I want to add one thing to R' MB's list of benefits that Daf Yomi has.
The Gemara (Berachos 6b) says that the reward people receive for going the a
derashah is because they ran there - not because of the learning they did
there. Rashi explains that they don't receive reward for the learning itself
because "most of them don't understand in a way that they can maintain the
text and repeat the halachah in the name of their teacher after a while." So
this is certainly not a new issue. That said, no one in the time of the
Gemara advocated stopping giving shiurim TTBOMK, or that people stop going
to the derashah and learn a different way. I think we can conclude from this
that the going itself is significant enough of a benefit that one should
still do it.
On a personal level, I have a lot of hesitation when anyone has taanos on
anyone learning in any way that's not clearly against halachah. You want to
sit in Bermuda shorts in a hot tub and learn? You want to lie on the couch
on learn? You want to learn on Nittel Nacht? You want to rely on those who
say that you can learn on 9 Av that comes out on Shabbos even after chatzos?
You want to learn while you sip a martini? You want to learn daf yomi? Go
ahead. Learn. You keep on learning and learning and everything else will
sort itself out.
KT,
MYG
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2016 22:36:26 -0400
From: Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: "'Micha Berger'" <micha at aishdas.org>, "'The Avodah Torah
Discussion Group'" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>, "'Lisa Liel'"
<lisa at starways.net>, "'Avodah Torah Discussion Group'"
<avodah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
Message-ID: <02b801d20267$4e58dfa0$eb0a9ee0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
R'MB:
I have a friend, slighly different case. The child was not the victim, and
the father's violence was not expressed sexually. He was told by Rav Reuven
Feinstein that he was obligated to sit shiv'ah. But I must confess, it was
far from a somber shiv'ah house. The whole experience was weird.
-----------------------------
Another weird case I've wondered about for years: A man receives a heter
mei'ah rabbanim, marries again, and then his first (and still) wife dies. He
sits shivah for the first, presumably, even though they may have been
estranged for years. (A similar situation, though less weird to me, would be
in regards to an agunah, where a spouse would presumably sit shivah for the
spouse even though they haven't been in contact for years.)
KT,
MYG
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:13:11 -0400
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Moshe Yehuda Gluck <mgluck at gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] aveilut for an abuser
Message-ID: <3383735f-8eb6-6867-5e28-3e7279a541a8 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
On 29/08/16 22:36, Moshe Yehuda Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> (A similar situation, though less weird to me, would be in regards
> to an agunah, where a spouse would presumably sit shivah for the
> spouse even though they haven't been in contact for years.)
In most cases an agunah would be receiving a shmua rechoka, so she would
only sit for a short time. But yes, if she gets a shmua krova she'd have
to sit a whole shiva, and wonder at the irony.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
zev at sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 13:16:10 +0000
From: "Professor L. Levine via Avodah" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: "avodah at aishdas.org" <avodah at aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Some hot milk spilled on my fleishig counter and I
would like to kasher it.
Message-ID: <1472562957841.59665 at stevens.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis.
Some hot milk spilled on my fleishig counter and I would like to kasher it. Can I boil the kashering water in my microwave and then pour it over that spot?
A. The general rule that governs kashering is k'bolo kach polto (the method that was utilized to absorb is the same one that is needed to purge). Since the counter became non-kosher by having hot milk spill on it, one may kasher by pouring boiling water over that area. However, Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 452:5) writes that if the non-kosher item (or, in this case, the milk) was heated by fire, the kashering water must also be heated by fire. Therefore, one may not kasher utensils that became non-kosher through fire in a hot spring. This is true even if the water in the spring is equally hot (boiling). Since a microwave oven heats water without fire, it has the same limitation as water from a hot spring, and cannot be used in place of water heated by a fire. If however, the hot milk that spilled on the counter was also heated in a microwave, then the microwave can be used to heat the water for kashering.
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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 21:27:25 +0300
From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
Message-ID:
<CAGDtJ1HdPS+yZ1kPP3VsVtX0KmnNkLuuKe9URpZu1YGMEx-PBg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
<<> I understand that some people are mahmir not to use the same
> glassware for both meat and milk,
This is not a chumra. It's ikar hadin, according to Ashkenazim. >>
Common practice is to use the same drinking glasses for both milchig and
fleishig meals
from Rav Heineman
*BEVERAGE GLASSES**Q: Can one use the same glass beverage glasses for both
dairy and meat meals?*
*A: *Yes.
*Q: Can these glasses be used for both hot and cold beverages?*
*A: *Yes.
*WHISKEY GLASSES**Q: Can the same whiskey glasses be used for both dairy
and meat meals?*
*A: *Yes
see
http://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/1162/a-crystal-clear-halachic-approach-to-glass/
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 9
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 21:39:47 +0300
From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: [Avodah] laws of nature
Message-ID:
<CAGDtJ1EWf+0AOXNNdbbgirUO_U14wgNSn0JSgHE5FTKYu-13JQ at mail.gmail.com>
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I just finished reading the book QED (quantum electrodynamics) by Richard
Feynman who received a Nobel prize for his part in the theory
He stresses in the book that the purpose of physics is to determine the
results in the real world, i.e. the how and not the why. Thus, while
quantum theory is weird and not understood by anyone QED is much more
strange. In the calculations .while includes an electron emitting an photon
and then reabsorbing the same photon. A photon can create an electron and
positron and then annihilate themselves to create a photon etc. He stresses
that we don't know iof all this really happens but the theory matched many
experimenst to multiple digits of accuracy and so it is "correct".
There are those that claim that there is nothing as a law of nature but
rather G-d continually guides every single incident to the identical
result. Feynman would claim that such a claim is irrelevant (perhaps true
but irrelevant)
1) It is impossible to even theoretically create an experiment that would
prove or disprove the assertion
2) It does nothing to help determine the outcome of any experiment and so
is irrelevant for physics.
One can argue for G-d and one can argue for an alien race that determines
everything in the world using their super-super computer.
Note the same argument applies to those that argue that the world is some
5700 years and was created so that it looks older. Again it can never be
tested and can never help any measurement.
One can equally well believe the world was created 200 years to look older.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On another matter Feynman was considered a genius among Nobel prize
winners. However, some of his actions were quite immoral showing that there
is no connection between brilliance and morality
--
Eli Turkel
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:06:48 -0400
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Eli Turkel <eliturkel at gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion
Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
Message-ID: <5cab1c78-58ba-2120-942b-184e3a57f9f6 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
On 30/08/16 14:27, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>>> I understand that some people are mahmir not to use the same
>>> glassware for both meat and milk,
>> This is not a chumra. It's ikar hadin, according to Ashkenazim.
> Common practice is to use the same drinking glasses for both milchig
> and fleishig meals
For Ashkenazim there is no difference between glass and ceramics.
Drinking glasses are always used cold, so it doesn't matter what they're
made of. They could be ceramic or metal and they'd still be usable at
both kinds of meals, so long as they're clean. If he's permitting them
to be used for hot drinks as well, he's assuming that we're talking about
hot pareve tea *after* the meal; the tea is parev, and there's no meat or
milk to be nivla` at one meal and niflat at the other. I doubt he'd permit
a glass used for milchig coffee to be used for hot tea *while* eating meat,
let alone putting meat in the glass.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
zev at sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 22:30:42 +0300
From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
Message-ID:
<CAGDtJ1H=pH6Qo1upMUmM=dWLdaigONUoLxOK-9wL6QhLF=xtPg at mail.gmail.com>
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> If he's permitting them
> to be used for hot drinks as well, he's assuming that we're talking about
> hot pareve tea *after* the meal; the tea is parev, and there's no meat or
> milk to be nivla` at one meal and niflat at the other. I doubt he'd permit
> a glass used for milchig coffee to be used for hot tea *while* eating meat,
> let alone putting meat in the glass.
> Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
Just to be clear Rav Heineman writes
Q: Is china glass?
A: It is customary to consider it as earthenware.
Q: Is corningware glass?
A: No, it is like china.
Q: Can these glasses be used for both hot and cold beverages?
A: Yes.
Q: Can other glass dishes, such as salad bowls or casseroles, be used for
both dairy and meat meals?
A: If the food is cold, or the glass dish is used as a Kli Sheini, it may
be used for both dairy and meat meals. Unless it is used on the oven or
range, a Kli Sheini is okay.
In my experience most ashkenazim use the same glass for milk at a milchig
meal and then wash the glass and use it
for hot tea at (during) a fleishig meal. I doubt if people put in meat into
a drinking glass.
None of my friends drink hot milk.
For a real psak someone can contact Rav Heineman
--
Eli Turkel
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:46:20 -0400
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Eli Turkel <eliturkel at gmail.com>
Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
Message-ID: <a71f2356-fd32-a653-78ea-04d916691037 at sero.name>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 30/08/16 15:30, Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> In my experience most ashkenazim use the same glass for milk at a
> milchig meal and then wash the glass and use it for hot tea at
> (during) a fleishig meal. I doubt if people put in meat into a
> drinking glass. None of my friends drink hot milk.
The Ramo says clearly that glass is earthenware, and even hag`olo
doesn't help.
--
Zev Sero Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
zev at sero.name meaning merely by appending them to the two other
words `God can'. Nonsense remains nonsense, even
when we talk it about God. -- C S Lewis
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:17:15 -0400
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
To: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
Cc: Eli Turkel <eliturkel at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Using an oven for both fleishigs and milchigs
Message-ID: <20160830201715.GC6111 at aishdas.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 03:46:20PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: The Ramo says clearly that glass is earthenware, and even hag`olo
: doesn't help.
... for chameitz. It is noted that he does not repeat the same thing
in YD. (Eg Peri Megadim (OC 451 MZ 31 "dad", YD 105 MZ 1 "ve'im").
The Minchas Yitzcoq (shu"t 1:86) therefore says that hag'alah would work
-- so not as meiqil as the Mechaber, but still, not keli chares.
The AhS YD 121:2 says that one may buy used glassware from a non-Jew
as long as they are washed and scrubbed well, "lefi shehein chalaqim
ve'einam bol'im".
I find no chiddush in R' Heineman holding like the AhS.
However, se'if 9 discussing cooking utensils says that keli zekhukhis ein
bahem tashmish bechamin. So if glass were usable as actual keli rishon
cookware, perhaps he would be machmir. But the AhS predated the common
use of pyrex and the like.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
micha at aishdas.org but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507
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