[Avodah] listening to governments and derabbanan

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 08:30:47AM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 1:25 AM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
:> Doesn't the gemara explicitly say that indeed, every derabbanan *is*
:> a de'oraisa to justify saying "asher qidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu"
:> on the qiyum of a derabbanan? (Shabbos 23a)

: The Ramban quotes the Gemara Berachos 19b that "kol mili drabbanan alav dlo
: tasur asmichinu" meaning that the application to dinim d'rabbanan is only
: an asmachta.

And later:
:>    1- Ramban (on Seifer haMizvos, shoresh 1): The same Rabbis who made
:>    the rabbinic prohibitions and duties made them only applicable in the
:>    case of certainty. They desired to make a clear distinction between
:>    Torah and rabbinic law.

: This is not the opinion of the Ramban. The Ramban quotes such a sevara and
: then dismisses it saying "ayn eilu devarim hagunim". This is actually the
: opinion of the Ran.

What I see is the Ramban (Hasagah, Seifer haMitzvos, shores 1) telling
you why the pasuq "lo sasur" is not an azahara, and not a complete
denial that the power to make a derabanan is from the Torah. As the
Ramban puts it,
    shelav zeh 'delo sasur' hu keshe'ar halavin shelaTorah
    aval divreihem al zeh halav halav asmekhinhu samakh be'alma
    lo sheyehei azhara kelal be'oso lav

As I see it, the Ramban is saying that lo sasur gives them the power
to legislate, but the specific legislation (oso lav) is only someikh on
the pasuq.

Which would keep derabbanan's out of the list of 613, but still mean that
following them is a qiyum of lo sasur. A way to have the "asher qidishanu
bemitzvosav" cake and eat it too.

Ad kan discussing the Ramban. Jumping back to discuss R MS haKohein:
:>: R' Meir Simcha in the Meshech Chochma on Shoftim has a fascinating
:>: explanation of the Rambam. He says that every din d'rabbanan is not
:>: necessarily a fulfillment of the will of Hashem and in fact may not be what
:>: Hashem wants. The proof is that the Rambam paskens based on the Gemara that
:>: a later greater Beis Din can be mevatel a takana of an earlier Beis Din. If
:>: every takana was the will of Hashem how could that be? ....
...
:                                         His point is that we as human
: beings don't know Hashems will and therefore we can make mistakes when
: making takanos. Because of that there is no intrinsic value in doing the
: act that the Chachamim were mesaken, rather the value is in listening to
: their words. Therefore if there is a safek there is no need to do the
: action.

I think he switches your cart and horse -- "efshar de'eiono misqabel el
Retzon haBorei". Not that they miss His Will, but the Creator rejects
their legislation. Or, ein hatzibur yalhol la'amod bam, which is the
category all the MC's examples demonstrate.

In either case, he talks about the difference between a deOraisa, where
one might ch"v eat chazir because of a safeiq and a derabbanan where,
as you put it "the value is in listening to their words". It is from
that part of the MC I get the idea that he is distinguishing deOraisos
as having ontologies we need to avoid or experience, and derabbanans
which are all about following orders for pragmatic reasons.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
micha at aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507