[Avodah] Kiddush hashem via issur

[Zev Sero via Avodah]

On 05/17/2016 05:47 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 04:30:39PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : On 05/17/2016 03:54 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : >And as I repeatedly responded, untrue. A talmid chakham with dirty
> : >clothes (or Rav buying his meat on credit, Yuma 86a) poses a chilul
> : >hasheim because CH*does*  mean "bad PR", vekhein lehefekh -- a qiddush
> : >hasheim is something that draws others to avodas Hashem.
> :
> : Only among those whose values match those of the Torah.
>
> Where does it say that?

It's completely obvious, and doesn't need saying.  It simply can't be
otherwise.


> And who has values that match the Torah's who would judge the Torah
> by how clean some TC's frock is?

Apparently so.  Otherwise what guide do you have?  Why do you assume pagans
esteem cleanliness, when for every one that does so there's probably another
who esteems filth and despises cleanliness?


> : >Later in that same sugya in Yuma, Yitzchaq od R' Yannai's BM says,
> : >"Anyone whose peers are embarassed of his reputation is a chilul hasheim,
>
> : Emphasis on "his peers".  Those who hold the same values.
>
> The reputation that causes the embarassment is the CH. And the reputation
> is not limited to those peers.

But non-peers may well think highly of him for it.   Think of the "game"
community that has formed online in the last 20 years, and what sort of
traits they admire and despise in a person.   A reputation that would
embarass a t"ch's peers would be lionised in those circles.


> : >and R' Nachman bar Yitzchaq, such as if people say, "May the L-rd forgive
> : >Peloni.
>
> : Again we see that we are talking only about those who believe in Hashem and
> : His value system.   If people say "may Baal forgive Peloni", that is a
> : *kiddush* haShem.
>
> ??? Every monotheist follows the Torah? What if his behavior is a turn-off
> to Tzeduqim?

Then it's a good bet that it's a kiddush haShem.


> Besides, who said the person's master / lord is ours? Other than my
> capitalization and hyphen, that's not a compelled reading.

Actually the gemara's lashon is may *his* Lord forgive him.  But it's
obviously being said by people who know what Hashem's standards are.



> : >Abayei then says this is like the beraisa on the pasuq "ve'ahavta
> : >es H' Elokekha" -- that sheim shamayim should be beloved because of you.
> :
> : It should be obvious that this is only among those who have a correct
> : value system.
>
> You're inserting your conclusion into a sentence that has no such
> limitation.

It *has* to have it, because we have voluminous *evidence* of what KH/CH
is, and it's emphatically *not* that sheim shomayim should be beloved by
those "who call bad good and good bad, who establish darkness as light
and light as darkness, bitter as sweet and sweet as bitter".


-- 
Zev Sero               Meaningless combinations of words do not acquire
zev at sero.name          meaning merely by appending them to the two other
                        words `God can'.  Nonsense remains nonsense, even
                        when we talk it about God.   -- C S Lewis