[Avodah] Moshiach Ben Yosef

Sun Mar 6 03:25:59 PST 2016

[Another morning digest of their conversation. -micha]

From: Isaac Balbin <isaac at balb.in>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 22:25:59 +1100

On 3 Mar 2016, at 9:54 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> There is very little aggadita in Mishneh Torah. A concept not being in
> the Yad means it is not halakahh, not that it doesn't exist.

> E.g. if he personally believed there would be a MbY but didn't think
> there was any obligation to believe it, nor does his absence weigh
> against accepting a possible MbD as king, the concept could very well
> not make the Yad.

Shimshon is masoretic Nach, surely.

How can that event not play into the scheme of things.

Based on what you say, the fact that the Rambam did NOT say Moshiach
can be from the Meisim, as some Chabadbiks try to argue against, one
should conclude it was merely yet another a throw away line in the Gemora
and the halacha is clear: death is a failed attempt (as is failure to
implement the requirements). Pass the ball onto the next who think they
can achieve it Achishena?

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From: Isaac Balbin <isaac.balbin at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:33:36 +1100

Let me get a few things on the record. Shaul was from Binyamin. He could
have been Moshiach. Which Moshiach Ben Yosef or Ben Dovid?
This is Nach. There is a feeling and writings that Moshiach Ben Yosef is
like the preparator warrior but the Rambam seems to combine them. Maybe
he did NOT have a Mesora in this. I do not know.

Note though, Yosef was Yosef HATZADIK. Do his offspring who wish to
fulfil the Moshiach Ben Yosef have to be Tzaddikim or is there is a
special inyan in blood, which is mixed up anyway everywhere today?

The Rambam doesn't tell us, at least in the Yad. Many other Torah
authorities take views. For example, see Maharal in Netzach Yisroel Perek
Lamed Zayin. Sefer HaTanya, is, I am led to believe very much in line
with the Maharal. Not completely I'm told, but lots. Now, who according to
Chabad, who "cooks" in the Inyan of Moshiach was this Moshiach Ben Yosef,
or do they believe it is no longer a concept, that Moshiach Ben Yosef, as
per the Rambam in the Yad is melded into one person from different tribes?
On Rav Kook see His Maamorim on page 93 or 4.
Check out Zechariah 12: 10-12 and Targum Yonason Ben Uziel. What was
the Rambams views on these. Do we need a R' Chaim or a Rogachover to
understand his way of Psak?
On Rav Kook and Herzl see Orot Yisrael, 6:6 and note that Rabbi Mark
Angel in his recent book shows revisionism because everyone is afraid
of the Hungarian Chareidim.
On the Ari, see R' Chaim Vital, Pri Eitz Chaim, Sha'ar Haamidah. The
Kaf Hachaim (and yes both were Mekubolim) also held this way.

Some will be interested in this
<http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/10926>

I'm not lazy, but time poor, but look here
<http://www.biu.ac.il/JS/JSIJ/11-2012/Fogel.pdf>

See also
<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1303355/Shimshon.pdf>

See also
<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1303355/Shimshon2.pdf>

See
<http://www.he.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1582529/jewish/-.htm>

For Zev's Chabad perspective.

It's hard to ignore the Geonim, but the Rambam did.

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From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 22:07:22 -0500

On 03/06/2016 09:33 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1303355/Shimshon.pdf

I didn't see any reference to Shimshon in this

> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1303355/Shimshon2.pdf

This is incoherent.  Reads like a machine translation.  

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From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:50:38 -0500

On 03/06/2016 09:33 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> Let me get a few things on the record. Shaul was from Binyamin. He
> could have been Moshiach.

Could he?  Since when?

And BTW the pashtus of the gemara is that R Akiva was entirely from
gerim, i.e. he had no descent from either Dovid or Yosef.   Or, if that
would have disqualified him from sitting in the Sanhedrin, then he had
one line of descent that was not from gerim, but there's no reason to
suppose it went back to either Dovid or Yosef.

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From: Isaac Balbin <isaac.balbin at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 16:19:21 +1100

On 7 Mar 2016, at 1:50 PM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:
> On 03/06/2016 09:33 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
>> Let me get a few things on the record. Shaul was from Binyamin. He
>> could have been Moshiach.

> Could he?  Since when?

If he did all the things that the Rambam said!

> And BTW the pashtus of the gemara is that R Akiva was entirely from
> grim,

He wasn't. He had mixed blood and you know it.

> i.e. he had no descent from either Dovid or Yosef.   Or, if that
> would have disqualified him from sitting in the Sanhedrin, then he had
> one line of descent that was not from gerim, but there's no reason to
> suppose it went back to either Dovid or Yosef.

There is every likelihood that everyone has blood from there today

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From: Zev Sero <zev at sero.name>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 22:13:58 -0500

On 03/06/2016 09:33 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
> It's hard to ignore the Geonim, but the Rambam did.

Which geonim?  According to your own sources, the geonim agreed that
Moshiach ben Yosef will *not necessarily happen*.   If so, then he must
not be halachically required, so he has no place in *Hilchos* Moshiach.
Since your question was why the Rambam omitted him, it is answered
exactly as I told you from the beginning.   The Yad, as a sefer halacha,
lists only that which is a halachic requirement.  Anything else belongs
in a sefer of inspiration, in a story book, in speculative writing, but
not in halacha.

For instance the Rambam mentions the possibility that Moshiach may
perform miracles *only for the purpose* of ruling that it's not necessary.
And the reason he holds it's not necessary is that Bar Kochva didn't
perform any, and yet he was properly thought to be Moshiach.  Since there
is no hava amina that MBY would be required, the Rambam has no need even
to mention it in order to rule it out.

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From: Isaac Balbin <isaac.balbin at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 16:26:20 +1100

On 7 Mar 2016, at 2:13 PM, Zev Sero <zev at sero.name> wrote:
> On 03/06/2016 09:33 PM, Isaac Balbin wrote:
>> It's hard to ignore the Geonim, but the Rambam did.
> Which geonim?  

Start with Rav Achai, they were closer to Mesora

> According to your own sources, the geonim agreed that
> Moshiach ben Yosef will  not necessarily happen.   

In that way. It might be incorporated OR we mightn't acknowledge it. The
latter is certainly a possibility in our spiteful world.

> If so, then he must
> not be halachically required,

And where does the Rambam know that Bar Kochba was a Binyan Av especially
as there are contradictions

> so he has no place in  Hilchos  Moshiach.
> Since your question was why the Rambam omitted him, it is answered
> exactly as I told you from the beginning.   The Yad, as a sefer halacha,
> lists only that which is a halachic requirement.

But it prevaricates, and you seem to keep eliding that!

>  Anything else belongs
> in a sefer of inspiration, in a story book, in speculative writing, but
> not in halacha.

Don't say story books. That does your argument no harm.

> For instance the Rambam mentions the possibility that Moshiach may
> perform miracles  only for the purpose  of ruling that it's not necessary.
> And the reason he holds it's not necessary is that Bar Kochva didn't
> perform any, and yet he was properly thought to be Moshiach.  

And was no Tzaddik HaDor either. He was a fighter.

> Since there
> is no hava amina that MBY would be required, the Rambam has no need even
> to mention it in order to rule it out.

Of course there us a HAVA AMINA. The question is why he did't write that
Hava Amina which would NOT have changed Halocho!