[Avodah] hakarat hatov

Akiva Miller via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Fri Aug 28 13:56:04 PDT 2015


R' Micha Berger:

<<< I do not even know of a term for requiring repaying a favor. Although
there is meishiv ra'ah tachas tovah (Mishlei 17:13, c.f. Bereishis 44:4,
Shemuel I 25:21, Yirmiyahu 18:20, Tehillim 35:12, 38:21, 109:5). Not an
obligation to repay as much as an issur against doing them wrong. >>>

"Mah ashiv laShem, kol tagmulohi alai?"

Akiva Miller
On Aug 28, 2015 2:46 PM, "via Avodah" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Child Conversion (Kaganoff via Avodah)
>    2. Mesorah (was Re:  Mesora only through Rashi) (Kaganoff via Avodah)
>    3. smart lighting (Eli Turkel via Avodah)
>    4. hakarat hatov (Rich, Joel via Avodah)
>    5. Re: hakarat hatov (Micha Berger via Avodah)
>    6. Re: hakarat hatov (Rich, Joel via Avodah)
>    7. Re: hakarat hatov (Zev Sero via Avodah)
>    8. Re: hakarat hatov (Zev Sero via Avodah)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:27:59 -0400
> From: Kaganoff via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: [Avodah] Child Conversion
> Message-ID:
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> oOARsdknGfHD5uwwUfKrmZGA at mail.gmail.com>
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> The assumption is that it is better to be a non-religious Jew (thereby
> violating numerous halakhos)  than a moral non-Jew.
>
> (I am being over simplistic as being non-Jewish citizen in Israel is more
> of a liability than elsewhere, so there may be a zechus to be a
> non-religious ger katan.)
>
> The irony as many have noted is that those who are most lenient about child
> conversion tend to be those who are also lenient in accepting that one
> could lead a perfectly good life as a non-Jew.
>
> Those who think that it is better to be Jewish than non-Jewish by extension
> should accept the conversion of a ger katan who will be raised by a
> non-religious family.
>
> The exception (and here I am venturing into Areivim territory) is Religious
> Zionists who would argue for the superiority of the Jewish soul and also
> for the need to allow ger katan conversions in non-religious families for
> reasons of Nationalism.
>
> Yonatan
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:50:52 -0400
> From: Kaganoff via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: [Avodah] Mesorah (was Re:  Mesora only through Rashi)
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> To parachute into an ongoing discussion, I have found that people use
> Mesorah in four different ways:
>
> 1) Personal Mesorah from a Rebbe to a Talmid. What a scholar or layman
> learns from his teacher.
>
> 2) Mesorah as the unbroken chain of Torah going back to Sinai. Rambam zt"l
> has the most famous mesorah chart, though I like Micha Berger's. (Parallels
> can be in Hadith transmission traditiona, Sufi traditions or the Catholic
> Church's assumption of an unbroken chain back to Peter).
>
> 3) Communal norms and traditions. This is how the term is commonly used in
> the Chareidi communities and also how it is being used in the ongoing
> discussion. This is the idea that there are legitimate practices, norms,
> values or halakhic understandings. For example different methodologies of
> learning. Or, as my brothers-in-law say to me, well if that is the mesorah
> of your community, then it is legitimate, even if they don't relate to this
> practice. (Personally, I do not relate to such a usage. Either an approach
> is valid/true or not valid/true.)
>
> I discussed the last category in an essay that Gil was kind enough to post:
> http://www.torahmusings.com/2011/07/two-types-of-orthodox-judaism/
>
> There are probably other uses of the term *mesorah*, but I cannot think of
> them at the moment.
>
> Best wishes,
> Yonatan
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> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:43:29 +0300
> From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: [Avodah] smart lighting
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> can one use smart lighting on shabbat
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_lighting
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
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> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 12:00:05 +0000
> From: "Rich, Joel via Avodah" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group (avodah at lists.aishdas.org)"
>         <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
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> Is Hakarat Hatov actionable in beit din (e.g. would they force a party to
> return a favor?) or is it a good midah but not exhibiting it is not
> actionable? (and what about in the beit din shel maalah?)
> How does this relate to kavod av/rav and shushbein cases?
> KVCT
> Joel Rich
>
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> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 13:37:32 -0400
> From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: "Rich, Joel" <JRich at sibson.com>,    The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
>         <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
> Message-ID: <20150827173732.GA29088 at aishdas.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 12:00:05PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> : Is Hakarat Hatov actionable in beit din (e.g. would they force a party
> : to return a favor?) or is it a good midah but not exhibiting it is not
> : actionable? (and what about in the beit din shel maalah?)
>
> My own lexicon:
> hakaras hatov: realizing that a good thing came into your life
> hoda'ah: acknowledging the one who / One Who provided that good
>
> Say Avi gives Berakhah a ball.
>
> Berakhah's hakaras hatov has an primary object, which is the ball --
> the tov she received from Avi. Not taking life's gifts for granted.
>
> But her hoda'ah has a primary object -- which is Avi, and a secondary
> object, the ball. As in the grammar of "Modim anachnu Lakh al...";
> the prespositional phrase giving you the secondary object is a list
> of all the things Hashem does for us.
>
> I do not even know of a term for requiring repaying a favor. Although
> there is meishiv ra'ah tachas tovah (Mishlei 17:13, c.f. Bereishis 44:4,
> Shemuel I 25:21, Yirmiyahu 18:20, Tehillim 35:12, 38:21, 109:5). Not an
> obligation to repay as much as an issur against doing them wrong.
>
> Which, if you think about it, is what Chazal say about the early makos
> and how Moshe would not be the one to launch a makah that afflicts the
> water that saved him as a baby or the sand that hid the body.
>
> I'm not thrilled with the whole idea of exchanging favors, creating a
> market. It turns everything back on self-service -- every positive
> act is tainted by expectation of being repaid.
>
>
> : How does this relate to kavod av/rav and shushbein cases?
>
> Perhaps kibud av va'eim and kavod harav are their own concepts for a
> reason. And that hakaras hatov might explain the issur against hurting
> or cursing one's parents, but not kavod and yir'ah.
>
> I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
> micha at aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
> http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:55:37 +0000
> From: "Rich, Joel via Avodah" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group (avodah at lists.aishdas.org)"
>         <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
> Message-ID:
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>
>
> I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
>
> Zechiyah uMattanah - Chapter Seven
> Translated by Eliyahu Touger
>
>
> Halacha 1
>
>
> It is a universally accepted custom in most countries that when a man
> marries, his friends and acquaintances send him money to support the
> expenses he must undertake on behalf of his wife. Then the friends and
> acquaintances who sent him this money come and eat and drink with the groom
> during all - or part - of the seven days of wedding celebration; everything
> should be done according to the accepted local custom.
>
> The money that he is sent is called shushvinut, and the people who send
> the money and then come and eat and drink with the groom are called
> shushvinin.
>
>
> Halacha 2
>
>
> Shushvinut is not an outright gift. For it is plainly obvious that a
> person did not send a colleague 10 dinarim with the intent that he eat and
> drink a zuz's worth. He sent him the money solely because his intent was
> that when he would marry, he would send him money as he has sent him.
>
> Therefore, if the sender marries a woman, and the recipient does not
> return the shushvinut, the sender may lodge a legal claim against the
> recipient and expropriate the money from him.
>
> KVCT
> Joel Rich
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:01:38 -0400
> From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>,   The Avodah Torah Discussion
>         Group <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
> Message-ID: <55DF5E92.9020405 at sero.name>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 08/27/2015 01:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> > I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".
>
> I believe the reference is to the law of shushvinin.  But that is not
> a matter of hakaras hatov; it's an explicit quid pro quo arrangement.
> If you don't pay it back when it falls due, you're cheating the person
> of a quantifiable amount of money that you explicitly owe him, so he
> can sue you for it.
>
> --
> Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
> zev at sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
>                         the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
>                         I have a right to kill him without asking questions
>                                                -- John Adams
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:28:42 -0400
> From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> To: "Rich, Joel" <JRich at sibson.com>,    The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
>         <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov
> Message-ID: <55DF64EA.6000201 at sero.name>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 08/27/2015 01:55 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> > money to support the expenses he must undertake on behalf of his wife.
>
> Mistranslation:  This should be "...the expenses of the feast."
>
> --
> Zev Sero               I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you
> zev at sero.name          intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in
>                         the street and commands me to surrender my purse,
>                         I have a right to kill him without asking questions
>                                                -- John Adams
>
>
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