<p dir="ltr">R' Micha Berger:</p>
<p dir="ltr"><<< I do not even know of a term for requiring repaying a favor. Although there is meishiv ra'ah tachas tovah (Mishlei 17:13, c.f. Bereishis 44:4, Shemuel I 25:21, Yirmiyahu 18:20, Tehillim 35:12, 38:21, 109:5). Not an obligation to repay as much as an issur against doing them wrong. >>></p>
<p dir="ltr">"Mah ashiv laShem, kol tagmulohi alai?"</p>
<p dir="ltr">Akiva Miller</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 28, 2015 2:46 PM, "via Avodah" <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Avodah mailing list submissions to<br>
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<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Child Conversion (Kaganoff via Avodah)<br>
2. Mesorah (was Re: Mesora only through Rashi) (Kaganoff via Avodah)<br>
3. smart lighting (Eli Turkel via Avodah)<br>
4. hakarat hatov (Rich, Joel via Avodah)<br>
5. Re: hakarat hatov (Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
6. Re: hakarat hatov (Rich, Joel via Avodah)<br>
7. Re: hakarat hatov (Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
8. Re: hakarat hatov (Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:27:59 -0400<br>
From: Kaganoff via Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Child Conversion<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAFK8up_06UHj2y=H1Nfw1LD15=<a href="mailto:oOARsdknGfHD5uwwUfKrmZGA@mail.gmail.com">oOARsdknGfHD5uwwUfKrmZGA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
The assumption is that it is better to be a non-religious Jew (thereby<br>
violating numerous halakhos) than a moral non-Jew.<br>
<br>
(I am being over simplistic as being non-Jewish citizen in Israel is more<br>
of a liability than elsewhere, so there may be a zechus to be a<br>
non-religious ger katan.)<br>
<br>
The irony as many have noted is that those who are most lenient about child<br>
conversion tend to be those who are also lenient in accepting that one<br>
could lead a perfectly good life as a non-Jew.<br>
<br>
Those who think that it is better to be Jewish than non-Jewish by extension<br>
should accept the conversion of a ger katan who will be raised by a<br>
non-religious family.<br>
<br>
The exception (and here I am venturing into Areivim territory) is Religious<br>
Zionists who would argue for the superiority of the Jewish soul and also<br>
for the need to allow ger katan conversions in non-religious families for<br>
reasons of Nationalism.<br>
<br>
Yonatan<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 21:50:52 -0400<br>
From: Kaganoff via Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Mesorah (was Re: Mesora only through Rashi)<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAFK8up919uYcKtdW8jHyvnEoTLDDg4=<a href="mailto:JWwz1eftmfgGuULn71A@mail.gmail.com">JWwz1eftmfgGuULn71A@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
To parachute into an ongoing discussion, I have found that people use<br>
Mesorah in four different ways:<br>
<br>
1) Personal Mesorah from a Rebbe to a Talmid. What a scholar or layman<br>
learns from his teacher.<br>
<br>
2) Mesorah as the unbroken chain of Torah going back to Sinai. Rambam zt"l<br>
has the most famous mesorah chart, though I like Micha Berger's. (Parallels<br>
can be in Hadith transmission traditiona, Sufi traditions or the Catholic<br>
Church's assumption of an unbroken chain back to Peter).<br>
<br>
3) Communal norms and traditions. This is how the term is commonly used in<br>
the Chareidi communities and also how it is being used in the ongoing<br>
discussion. This is the idea that there are legitimate practices, norms,<br>
values or halakhic understandings. For example different methodologies of<br>
learning. Or, as my brothers-in-law say to me, well if that is the mesorah<br>
of your community, then it is legitimate, even if they don't relate to this<br>
practice. (Personally, I do not relate to such a usage. Either an approach<br>
is valid/true or not valid/true.)<br>
<br>
I discussed the last category in an essay that Gil was kind enough to post:<br>
<a href="http://www.torahmusings.com/2011/07/two-types-of-orthodox-judaism/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.torahmusings.com/2011/07/two-types-of-orthodox-judaism/</a><br>
<br>
There are probably other uses of the term *mesorah*, but I cannot think of<br>
them at the moment.<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
Yonatan<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:43:29 +0300<br>
From: Eli Turkel via Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] smart lighting<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAGDtJ1GVgO0Ez55DoorrtQw_kfhbpGcPtQS8J8mV2rq-8rjYAA@mail.gmail.com">CAGDtJ1GVgO0Ez55DoorrtQw_kfhbpGcPtQS8J8mV2rq-8rjYAA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
can one use smart lighting on shabbat<br>
<br>
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_lighting" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_lighting</a><br>
<br>
--<br>
Eli Turkel<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 12:00:05 +0000<br>
From: "Rich, Joel via Avodah" <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group (<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>)"<br>
<<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Avodah] hakarat hatov<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:7a2882b12eb74f069ba83fdd615346de@VW2K8NYCEXMBX2.segal.segalco.com">7a2882b12eb74f069ba83fdd615346de@VW2K8NYCEXMBX2.segal.segalco.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Is Hakarat Hatov actionable in beit din (e.g. would they force a party to return a favor?) or is it a good midah but not exhibiting it is not actionable? (and what about in the beit din shel maalah?)<br>
How does this relate to kavod av/rav and shushbein cases?<br>
KVCT<br>
Joel Rich<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 13:37:32 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: "Rich, Joel" <<a href="mailto:JRich@sibson.com">JRich@sibson.com</a>>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:20150827173732.GA29088@aishdas.org">20150827173732.GA29088@aishdas.org</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 12:00:05PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:<br>
: Is Hakarat Hatov actionable in beit din (e.g. would they force a party<br>
: to return a favor?) or is it a good midah but not exhibiting it is not<br>
: actionable? (and what about in the beit din shel maalah?)<br>
<br>
My own lexicon:<br>
hakaras hatov: realizing that a good thing came into your life<br>
hoda'ah: acknowledging the one who / One Who provided that good<br>
<br>
Say Avi gives Berakhah a ball.<br>
<br>
Berakhah's hakaras hatov has an primary object, which is the ball --<br>
the tov she received from Avi. Not taking life's gifts for granted.<br>
<br>
But her hoda'ah has a primary object -- which is Avi, and a secondary<br>
object, the ball. As in the grammar of "Modim anachnu Lakh al...";<br>
the prespositional phrase giving you the secondary object is a list<br>
of all the things Hashem does for us.<br>
<br>
I do not even know of a term for requiring repaying a favor. Although<br>
there is meishiv ra'ah tachas tovah (Mishlei 17:13, c.f. Bereishis 44:4,<br>
Shemuel I 25:21, Yirmiyahu 18:20, Tehillim 35:12, 38:21, 109:5). Not an<br>
obligation to repay as much as an issur against doing them wrong.<br>
<br>
Which, if you think about it, is what Chazal say about the early makos<br>
and how Moshe would not be the one to launch a makah that afflicts the<br>
water that saved him as a baby or the sand that hid the body.<br>
<br>
I'm not thrilled with the whole idea of exchanging favors, creating a<br>
market. It turns everything back on self-service -- every positive<br>
act is tainted by expectation of being repaid.<br>
<br>
<br>
: How does this relate to kavod av/rav and shushbein cases?<br>
<br>
Perhaps kibud av va'eim and kavod harav are their own concepts for a<br>
reason. And that hakaras hatov might explain the issur against hurting<br>
or cursing one's parents, but not kavod and yir'ah.<br>
<br>
I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".<br>
<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
--<br>
Micha Berger When a king dies, his power ends,<br>
<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a> but when a prophet dies, his influence is just<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.aishdas.org</a> beginning.<br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%28270%29%20514-1507" value="+12705141507">(270) 514-1507</a> - Soren Kierkegaard<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:55:37 +0000<br>
From: "Rich, Joel via Avodah" <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group (<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>)"<br>
<<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:8a4e4cbff8b44564936edaf2aa19bbc7@VW2K8NYCEXMBX4.segal.segalco.com">8a4e4cbff8b44564936edaf2aa19bbc7@VW2K8NYCEXMBX4.segal.segalco.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".<br>
<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
<br>
Zechiyah uMattanah - Chapter Seven<br>
Translated by Eliyahu Touger<br>
<br>
<br>
Halacha 1<br>
<br>
<br>
It is a universally accepted custom in most countries that when a man marries, his friends and acquaintances send him money to support the expenses he must undertake on behalf of his wife. Then the friends and acquaintances who sent him this money come and eat and drink with the groom during all - or part - of the seven days of wedding celebration; everything should be done according to the accepted local custom.<br>
<br>
The money that he is sent is called shushvinut, and the people who send the money and then come and eat and drink with the groom are called shushvinin.<br>
<br>
<br>
Halacha 2<br>
<br>
<br>
Shushvinut is not an outright gift. For it is plainly obvious that a person did not send a colleague 10 dinarim with the intent that he eat and drink a zuz's worth. He sent him the money solely because his intent was that when he would marry, he would send him money as he has sent him.<br>
<br>
Therefore, if the sender marries a woman, and the recipient does not return the shushvinut, the sender may lodge a legal claim against the recipient and expropriate the money from him.<br>
<br>
KVCT<br>
Joel Rich<br>
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Message: 7<br>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:01:38 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>>, The Avodah Torah Discussion<br>
Group <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:55DF5E92.9020405@sero.name">55DF5E92.9020405@sero.name</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 08/27/2015 01:37 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:<br>
> I must confess I don't know what you mean by "shushbein cases".<br>
<br>
I believe the reference is to the law of shushvinin. But that is not<br>
a matter of hakaras hatov; it's an explicit quid pro quo arrangement.<br>
If you don't pay it back when it falls due, you're cheating the person<br>
of a quantifiable amount of money that you explicitly owe him, so he<br>
can sue you for it.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you<br>
<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a> intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in<br>
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,<br>
I have a right to kill him without asking questions<br>
-- John Adams<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2015 15:28:42 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: "Rich, Joel" <<a href="mailto:JRich@sibson.com">JRich@sibson.com</a>>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<<a href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] hakarat hatov<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:55DF64EA.6000201@sero.name">55DF64EA.6000201@sero.name</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed<br>
<br>
On 08/27/2015 01:55 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:<br>
> money to support the expenses he must undertake on behalf of his wife.<br>
<br>
Mistranslation: This should be "...the expenses of the feast."<br>
<br>
--<br>
Zev Sero I have a right to stand on my own defence, if you<br>
<a href="mailto:zev@sero.name">zev@sero.name</a> intend to commit felony...if a robber meets me in<br>
the street and commands me to surrender my purse,<br>
I have a right to kill him without asking questions<br>
-- John Adams<br>
<br>
<br>
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