[Avodah] sources for not covering hair

Micha Berger via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Tue Aug 11 15:53:01 PDT 2015

On Sun, Aug 02, 2015 at 12:55:06AM -0500, Noam Stadlan via Avodah wrote:
: Here are the sources I have collected, in addition to the fact that a
: significant percentage of Modern Orthodox women to not cover their hair in
: public except in shul/davening situations.

Although there is long evidence of rabbis saying it's a problem, but
not a battle they can win. So the mimetic side is dismissable. (Also,
how does someone who advocates for more roles for women in shul make a
mimetic argument?)

: In the words of R. Yehoshua Babad: "The principle whether or not an act of
: uncovering constitutes immodesty (*ervah*) is...

: If the women in the general society do not cover their hair, then uncovered
: hair is not immodest, and therefore routine hair covering is not mandated.

But saying it's not a breach of tzeni'us doesn't say it's allowed,
that's your addition not in the translated text you quote. RYB could
mean what the AhS says, that it's terrible things came to this, but you
may daven in her presence. Or, that whle it's not a tzeni'us problem,
it's still prohibited deOraisa as per the implication in parashas sotah.

: Here is a list of easily accessable sources:
: Rabbi Marc Angel...

Listening to his citing R' Masas and your quoting R Badad, maybe it's
a Seph thing?

He presumes hair covering is das Yehudis, which makes his a rare
shitah. (Again, given the derivation from a pasuq.)

But then again, R' Ovadiah Yosef firmly disagrees.

But you took on a comparatively easier task -- that the shitah exists. And
two Sepharadi citations should be sufficient.

: I emphaisize that R. Broyde states that his article is a limmud zechut, and
: not taking the position that women do not have to cover their hair.
: However, the sources and thread of learning speak for themselves and
: everyone can come to their own conclusion.

... which is what he does, that the theory is there, but it's a shitah
dechuyah. And noticably, he too quotes R' Yosef Masas, R' Moshe Malka
and the Kaf haChaim  -- Sepharadi sources.

: Rav Yosef Haim...

So, assuming the woman doesn't eat qitniyos, may she go with her hair

And even if she does... At what point is a shitah dechuyah?

: Regarding the position of Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik, here is the testimony
: of Rabbi Yitz Greenberg.

: R. Yitz Greenberg reports his question to Rav Soloteitchik and the reply:
: "How was it that Rebbetzin Tonya Soloveitchik, *zichronah livracha*, did
: not cover her hair? ...
: Smiling, the Rav said that immodesty (*ervah*) is contextual and that in
: this society and time, showing hair was not immodest (*ervah*)."

: I have not seen it personally, but R. Gil Student reports that the
: artscroll biography of R. Dessler contains photos of rebbitzins with
: uncovered hair.

: Obviously, not covering hair in public for women was at least somewhat
: common...

And yet the rabbanim protested. This isn't even admissable as mimetic
tradition, any more than noting how often people speak leshon hara or
buy off-the-books or anything else rabbis have failed to curb.

: uncovered hair, RYBS would have been allowing all those men who saw his
: wife to sin.  The position seems quite untenable.

He too, would only need to be convinced is wasn't ervah in the sense of
"all those men" sinning. But as we see in the AhS, that doesn't mean
it's allowed.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             The mind is a wonderful organ
micha at aishdas.org        for justifying decisions
http://www.aishdas.org   the heart already reached.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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