[Avodah] Rav Elchanan Wasserman & Why People Sin

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 12:33:43PM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: Well Micha and I agree on several points but still disagree on others.
: Agreed that people in real life don't use formal mathematical proofs...

I would go further and say that far too many things /can't/ use formal
proofs.

And even further: even when you do have a formal proof, it is built
from givens -- call them postulates or first principles. So, barring an
infinite regress, even a formal proof is a structure atop things accepted
without formal proof.

I should point out that this a major subset of the field of epistomology.

: It doesnt work when trying to convince others.

True, but not relevant. We -- and more importantly to the origianl point,
REW -- are talking about whether it's more natural to believe in G-d
or not. Not whether a believer could then convince someone else.

...
: We have already argued about REW and I still can't accept it. The argument
: is that if someone else tells you why he doesn't accept G-d or that G-d
: rules the world whether for rational or emotional reasons the answer is
: that we don't believe him and say he is making up reasons.

REW doesn't say that. I even cut-n-pasted a translation to support that
point. REW says that he really doesn't believe, but he had to work against
the natural state of seeing a world that shows obvious signs of a Designer.
Someone can truly and honestly convince himself, or be convinced by
others (including upbringing) that a poem really could emerge by
someone spilling ink. But that's not what people would conclude if we
lacked a strong desire to conclude that way -- the "shochad" of freedom
if ein din ve'ein Dayan.

There is nothing in that quote from Qovetz Maamarim about anyone not
really believing what they think they believe. Rather, he ascribes a
motive.

: Of course he will say the same about your acceptance of Torah and mitzvot.

Again, REW isn't speaking about the context of debate. Nor was I. By
bringing it in, you complicate matters without addressing the original
claim.

REW is really just saying that the reason why believe is a fair topic of
bechirah because on one side design is self-evident but on the other the
desire to live without having to follow the Designer counterbalances it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             People were created to be loved.
micha at aishdas.org        Things were created to be used.
http://www.aishdas.org   The reason why the world is in chaos is that
Fax: (270) 514-1507      things are being loved, people are being used.