[Avodah] Rav Elchanan Wasserman & Why People Sin

[Eli Turkel via Avodah]

Micha wrote
<<But my point was that there are things other than proof.
Nu, so they're wrong. We may not be able to prove to them they're wrong, but
they are.
Somewhere "out there" is a real objective definition. Regardless of
someone's ability to know what they are, or to accept it if they did.
We're talking about how I justify my believing in something, not how I
prove it to others
REW says that if it were not for ulterior motive, G-d's existence would be
as self evident >>

Well Micha and I agree on several points but still disagree on others.
Agreed that people in real life don't use formal mathematical proofs. A
sanhedrin can kill on a majority vote (OK there a little more than 50%)
I also agree that if one is talking about oneself then feelings count.
Saying they are wrong but I cant prove it works perfectly OK with regard to
your own beliefs.
It doesnt work when trying to convince others.

Example:
Your child comes home and says he learned that the world is billions of
years old not about 5700 years. Or else your teenager tells you he doesn't
believe G-d is loving because of the Holocaust or because of Amalek.

You can tell him that whatever is in the Torah or Chazal is truth and its
not open to discussion. That might work with some children. Alternatively
you can give him/her one of the many answers that have been discussed on
this list. That may or not convince him. There are no proofs that G-d
exists or that G-d rules the universe or that G-d is just or loving. You
can convince yourself but doing that to others is difficult,

We have already argued about REW and I still can't accept it. The argument
is that if someone else tells you why he doesn't accept G-d or that G-d
rules the world whether for rational or emotional reasons the answer is
that we don't believe him and say he is making up reasons.
Of course he will say the same about your acceptance of Torah and mitzvot.

To simply accuse the other of simply rationalizing his beliefs is simply
not true. I have had enough lectures on why the Bible was written very late
by many scribes to be convinced they really mean it. You may disagree but
you can't accuse them of merely rationalizing their non-belief.
In one class the professor said he would willing debate anyone who has a
different opinion objectively. However, if you start that the Torah is from
Sinai because of your belief then there is nothing to discuss.

What is self-evident to you is self-evidently false to someone else. Again
it is legitimate to disagree with that person but I claim it is not
legitimate to state that he doesn't really believe in his own position.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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