[Avodah] Rabbi Noach Isaac Oelbaum's Position on the Kosher Switch

[Micha Berger via Avodah]

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 04:25:42PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:> What's relevant is the probability of the wind eventually blowing the
:> candle out or the switch turning the light off. If it's a rov or maybe
:> a rube deruba, then it's gerama.

: That doesn't seem to be what the SA says.  But again, with the caveat that
: intention might make a difference.

But we already know it does, according to RSZa and numerous other posqim.
IOW, your seifa answers your reisha.

: >Whether you can break down the likelihood of the melakhah occuring into
: >a union of the probability of a number of sub-steps or not doesn't seem
: >to me to impact the question. Because this isn't a safeiq situation,
: >it's whether your action can be blamed for the melakhah.

: It's putting further causal distance between "cause" and "effect".
: What if you had a series of these routines, each of which may or may not
: call the next one, until the last one which may or may not do something?

That's exactly what I'm saying -- gerama is always a chain of events
that can be subdivided according to your taste (how fine grained you wish
to define the word "event").

There is an oft-discussed difference between melakhah and CM, where the
latter subdivides into gerama (culpable) and garmi (no libability) but
hilkhos Shabbos does not. And then even so, garmi is about number of
human actions, not physical events.


On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 05:05:38PM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
: On Apr 15, 2015 6:01 AM, "Micha Berger via Avodah" <avodah at lists.aishdas.org>
: wrote:
:> On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 05:07:57AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
:>: Rabbi Oelbaum has asked that his son's comment on YeshivaWorld
:>: regarding Rav Oelbaum's position on kosher switch be publicized.
:> ...
:>:> Moshe Oelbaum
:>:> Son of Rabbi N I Oelbaum

:> Authentication?

: Um, the fact that R' Oelbaum says the same thing on the KosherSwitch video
: (<https://youtu.be/Aneast2yakU>)?

YOu misunderstand what I'm asking to be authenticated. Yes, I agree
that RNIO talks about zilzul Shabbos. He does in the original alleged
approbation in print (or PDF) as well.

I was asking for authentication that RMO was really the one who said
it's "only" zilzul Shabbos and not also gerama.

There is nothing in his caveat about them avoiding melakhah that explains
in what way shabbos is being cheapened. Could be uvda dechol, could
be gerama, could be any other derabbanan or shevus. No?

Not to verify the new "chumera", but to very he wasn't being even more
machmir. That's a lot to glean from a post on a YWN chatroom that claims
to be from his son. No one identity checks on YWN.

: What I find very disturbing is that this information is in the public
: arena. Why are people commenting or conjecturing without looking at the
: companies materials?

In the same post I cite the site in numerous ways, including commenting
on parts of the patent application. It's not like I stinted on the
research.

Never blame until the possibility of miscommunication has been
eliminated. No?


: On Apr 16, 2015 2:46 PM, "Micha Berger" <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
: Take a look at R' Schapiro's teshuva (available on the KosherSwitch
: website) as well as listen to the shuir they link to (26 min.).

One thing I had noted about the teshuvah is that he doesn't bother with
the whole thing about a second randomizer. Which is why I was lost as to
why anyone would think this is more mutar, and why people who generally
follow RSZA more often than RZS would think this solves anything.

See R' Neuwirth's summary rejection, repudiating the claim he backed
their work <http://j.mp/1HyFFw>. Consistent with what he reported
besheim RSZA decades ago.

I already noted OC 277, which is specific to geram kibui being mutar,
with the exception of taking a candle outside while the wind is calm,
lest someone not wait for the wind to be calm. And havarah or bishul?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 12th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        1 week and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Gevurah: What aspect of judgment
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  forces the "judge" into submission?