[Avodah] More on Gmar Chasima Tovah?

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 01:21:06PM -0500, someone wrote to Areivim:
> I understood Hoshana Rabba as being the day the nations of the world are  
> judged.

Our tefillos assume like R' Meir (Berakhos 16a) that chasimah is on Yom
Kippur. R' Yehudah (ibid) disagrees and says chasimah is each thing in
its time: Pesach for tevu'ah, Shavuos for fruit, Sukkos for water, and
only people are nechtam on YK.

One can ask what judgment of tevu'ah, fruit and water means when taken
out of the context of judging the people who need them. First, because
they don't have bechirah chafshis and thus judging them is pointless;
second because wheat doesn't care about the sentencing, only the people
relying on it do.

The mishnah (RH 1:2) reflects R Yehudah's position about the 4 distinct
judgments, although it speaks of "nidon", not "nechtam". I would say
this is unsurprising for the mishnah to be Rebbe's position, were it
not equally logical to invoke stam mishnah keR' Meir.

So, according to R' Yehudah and the stam mishnah in RH, Hoshanah Rabba
marks the end of din on water, its chasimah.

Given the gemara at the beginning of mes' Taanis about the three keys
that HQBH does not delegate, I would assume this includes parnasah in
general.

But this presumption is my own, and there is another consequence to the
difference -- related to the post quoted at the top. While "a rising tide
raises all ships", it doesn't require a neis nigleh for one person to get
rich and another not. However, WRT water itself, without violating teva,
it would seem the judgment would have to be regional. You can't have rain
on only one house and not next door.

R' Eliyahu Kitov writes:
    On Hoshana Rabbah there takes place the final "sealing of judgement"
    which begins on Rosh Hashanah. At the beginning of the period
    of judgment - on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur - all the world's
    inhabitants pass in individual review before G-d. During the
    Festival of Sukkot, the entire world is judged concerning water,
    fruit, and produce.

I do not know his source for "fruit and produce". It's not R' Yehudah.

    The seventh day of the Festival, Hoshana Rabbah, is the day on which
    this judgment is sealed. Because human life depends on water and all
    depends upon the final decision, Hoshana Rabbah is invested with a
    certain similarity to Yom Kippur and is therefore marked by profuse
    prayer and repentance.

Thus elevating judgment on water to being part of the judgment of people.
This appears to me to be touching the question I asked: What is chasimah
on water that it can be excluded from the chasimah on

In any case, the thread on Areivimstarted with Prof Levine objecting to
"Gemar Chasimah Tovah", proving that the "gemar" is of recent vintage. He
elaborated on that post here on Avodah
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol30/v30n134.shtml#12> (of course the
"more on" in the subject line on this thread here on Avodah would be a
mystery to those who don't get Areivim):

> My understanding is that the Ksiva is on RH,  and the Chasima is on YK.
> According to some the final Chasima is on Hoshana Rabba.

WRT people, the gemar chasimah is on YK. Hoshanah Rabba is a
different judgment. Again, not that I understand how the two are fully
distinct. Just noting that Rebbe, the shitah that assigns any judgment
to HR at all, says they are.

And so, Gemar Chasima Tovah before YK makes sense according to both R'
Meir (who has no other times of judgment) and Rebbe.

Pet peeve: The Israeli "Gemar Tov" sounds to me like the other person
is wishing for one's petirah. At least it should be a good ending,
but still, who wants to end?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

PS: This is based on research I did for a recent blog post based on
RAM's question here about why resha'im can't do teshuvah after RH
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2012/09/mothers-day-and-teshuvah-week.shtml>

The two topics overlap because the question is based on the statement
in the gemara that chasimah on YK is only for beinonim, because tzadiqim
and resha'im were already sealed on RH.

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
micha at aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter