[Avodah] FW: RSRH on Metzitzeh bePeh

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2012 at 06:05:15PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
:> The Levush Mordechai (#30), notably a Litvak, argues that metzizah bepeh
:> is so repulsive of a concept, how could anyone think we instituted it
:> if it weren't a chiyuv? He also leaves open the question as to whether
:> someone who didn't have metzitzah, which he assumes requires MbP, is an
:> orel or can he eat from the qorban Pesach! R' YL Diskin makes the same
:> argument, which the IM rejects (YD 1:223)...

:> My point being... There are two sides to the issue. It's non-trivial,
:> and it's really not for us on one tzad to tell the other tzad to reject
:> centuries of teshuvos from their qehillah and others. Doubly so when
:> the people doing the call for dimissal are the historical innovators.

: WADR to the Levush Mordechai, his argument in favor of MbP is a Sevara
: and TTBOMK not sourced anywhere in the Gemarah or the Rishonim...

It is one of the arguments of one acharon among many who requires MbP. I
also mentioned the LM (and R' YL Diskin) is unique in (1) being a Litvak
who holds this way, and (2) calling the resulting child an areil. So
I'm not sure why this one point is worth discussing and losing sight of
the general machloqes. What about those who are medayeiq in the lashon
of the gemara or the Rambam? What about those who believe MbP has to
do with milah's connection to *eating* from the eitz hada'as and the
consequent kusones or?

: Peh was used not because of a D'Oraisa, but because it is obvioulsy the
: best way of withdrawing the blood from the wound so it wouldn't become
: a source of collected bacteria and ultimately infected.  

MbP was the only metzitzah practiced for three millenia. (Eg the
Rama.) How do you know why? And why are you insisting it's related to
bacteria when no one is talking about replacing metzitzah with anti
bacterial cream (or some other more effective alternative for killing
bacteria)?

You're guessing about "the best way of withdrawing the blood from the
wound", and insisting that dozens of posqim should be ignored in favor
of that guess.

: You say that "the shu"t Meishiv Nefesh (2:6) concludes from this that
: the Rambam held metzitzah was part of the mitzvah"

: What does that have to do with anything? In no way do I say that
: Metzitza should not be done...

No, you just say it's done for medical reasons. Whereas the MN concludes
it was for deOraisa ones unrelated to medicine. This dismisses your
argument that bepeh is simply an efficient way to do metzitzah.

Also, recall that RSRH is among those who hold the mitzvah is specifically
metzitzah bepeh, and is only meiqil in considering using a tzinor as
still being bepeh. Leshitaso, not just that of those who require direct
contact, MbP is because G-d said so. Nothing about efficient ways to
remove bacteria.

Eilu va'eilu. We meiqilim shouldn't be in the business of trying to
win a machloqes by gov't intervention. We should instead be supporting
campaigns to teach mohalim to use disinfectant or even better, to teach
fathers whose posqim require MbP not to use a shaliach for metzitzah.
Both of which would reduce risk.

We are talking about 11 cases in a 12 year span that the Agudah estimates
included 3,500 MbP/year. IOW, 2.6 cases per 10,000. Until you invest the
same effort to teach people driving in frum neighborhoods to drive more
defensively, which killed 1430 per 10,000 in the same span, this isn't
the wisest use of our time.

BTW, the marginal risk increase of MbP over milah is far far smaller
than the risk of milah over areilus. (Excluding disease and cancer rate
reductions for circumcized men.) If we let the gov't step in, we'll be
burning the Rambam one day and left with no shasin at all to learn from
the next. Just ask RAFolger and anyone else of the chevrah in Germany
(and now Austria and Switzerland).

But back to the Avodah side of things... There are two shitos. Your
ancestors and mine may have accepted one. Your personal opinion may
favor that one. But someone following their community's pesaqim isn't
expected to follow your argument, or an agreeing poseiq's argument,
over his own. And his loyalty to halakhah as his qehillah holds it to
be is worth accepting more risk than the risk of crossing the street or
putting a baby to sleep with a pillow in their crib.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
micha at aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
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