[Avodah] Yael [was: The Main Idea of Judaism]

[Chana Luntz]

RTK writes:

 

>I would like to point out a couple of things here that may be relevant:

 

>[1] First of all, the text does not say that Yael had relations with Sisra.

 

I think it is also important, in order to follow the conversation between
myself and RDR, to understand that we are not commenting on the actual Nach
text at all, but solely on three gemoras, which for completeness I reproduce
below:

 

תלמוד בבלי מסכת הוריות דף י עמוד ב

אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק: גדולה עבירה לשמה ממצוה שלא לשמה, שנאמר:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100240000%22)> +שופטים ה+
תבורך מנשים יעל אשת חבר הקיני מנשים באהל תבורך, מאן נינהו נשים באהל? שרה,
רבקה, רחל ולאה. איני? והאמר רב יהודה אמר רב:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0301900002500000000500000000,030190000530000
0000500000000,0302500094300000002100000000%22)> לעולם יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות
אפילו שלא לשמה, שמתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה! אימא: כמצוה שלא לשמה. אמר רבי יוחנן:
שבע בעילות בעל אותו רשע באותה שעה, שנאמר:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100270000%22)> +שופטים ה+
בין רגליה כרע נפל שכב וגו'. והא קא מיתהניא מעבירה! אמר רבי יוחנן משום רבי
שמעון בן יוחאי: אפילו טובתם של רשעים רעה היא אצל צדיקים

Talmud Bavli Horayos 10b

Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak said: greater is an averah lishma than a mitzvah
shelo lishma as it says  (Shoftim 5:24) “blessed above women is Yael wife of
Chaver HaKini above women are in the tent she shall be blessed”, Who are
these women who are in the tent Sarah, Rivkah, Rochel and Leah.  And is this
so,  Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav, indeed a person should engage in
Torah and mitzvos even shelo lishma, and through this lo lishma he will come
to lishma. So say, [an averah lishma] is like a mitzvah which is lo lishma.
Rav Yochanan said: seven beilos boel that rasha in that hour as it says
(Shoftim 5:27) between her legs he bent, he fell, he lay etc.  But she
benefited/derived pleasure from the averah?  Rav Yochanan said in the name
of Rav Shimon ben Yochai even the good of the rashaim is bad to the
tzadikim.

 

תלמוד בבלי מסכת נזיר דף כג עמוד ב

אמר ר"נ בר יצחק: גדולה עבירה לשמה ממצוה שלא לשמה. והאמר רב יהודה אמר רב:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0301900005300000000500000000%22)> לעולם
יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות אפי' שלא לשמן, שמתוך שלא לשמן בא לשמן! אלא אימא:
כמצוה שלא לשמה, דכתיב:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100240000%22)> +שופטים ה+
תבורך מנשים יעל אשת חבר הקני מנשים באהל תבורך, מאן נשים שבאהל? שרה, רבקה,
רחל ולאה. א"ר יוחנן: שבע בעילות בעל אותו רשע באותה שעה, שנאמר:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100270000%22)> +שופטים ה+
בין רגליה כרע נפל שכב וגו'. והא קא מתהניא מבעילה דיליה! א"ר יוחנן: כל טובתן
של רשעים אינה אלא רעה אצל צדיקים, שנאמר:
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000003000000000100290000%22)> +בראשית
לא+ השמר לך מדבר עם יעקב מטוב ועד רע, בשלמא רע - שפיר, אלא טוב אמאי לא? אלא
לאו ש"מ: טובתו רעה היא, ש"מ. 

 

Talmud Bavli Nazir 23b

Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak said: greater is an averah lishma than a mitzvah
shelo lishma. But did not Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav, indeed a
person should engage in Torah and mitzvos even shelo lishma, and through
this lo lishma he will come to lishma. So say, [an averah lishma] is like a
mitzvah which is lo lishma, like it is written (Shoftim 5:24) “blessed above
women is Yael wife of Chaver HaKini above women are in the tent she shall be
blessed”, Who are these women who are in the tent Sarah, Rivkah Rochel and
Leah.  Rav Yochanan said: seven beilos boel that rasha in that hour as it
says (Shoftim 5:27) between her legs he bent, he fell, he lay etc.  But she
benefited/derived pleasure from his beila?  Rav Yochanan said even the good
of the rashaim is bad to the tzadikim as it says (Breishis 31:29) guard
yourself from speaking with Ya’akov either good or bad, bad is understood,
but good, why not? Rather derive from this, his good is bad, indeed derive
it.

תלמוד בבלי מסכת יבמות דף קג עמוד א-ב

אמר רבי יוחנן: שבע בעילות בעל אותו רשע באותו היום, שנאמר: +
<javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100270000%22)> שופטים ה'+
בין רגליה כרע נפל שכב בין רגליה כרע נפל באשר כרע שם נפל שדוד. והא קא מתהניא
מעבירה! אמר רבי יוחנן משום ר"ש בן יוחי: כל טובתן של רשעיםרעה היא אצל צדיקים,
שנא': + <javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000003000000000100240000%22)>
בראשית ל"א+ השמר לך פן תדבר עם יעקב מטוב עד רע, בשלמא רע לחיי, אלא טוב אמאי
לא? אלא ש"מ: טובתן של רשעים רעה היא אצל צדיקים. בשלמא התם - דלמא מדכר ליה
שמא דעבודת כוכבים, אלא הכא מאי רעה איכא? דקא שדי בה זוהמא, דא"ר יוחנן: בשעה
שבא נחש על חוה הטיל בה זוהמא, ישראל שעמדו על הר סיני - פסקה זוהמתן, עובדי
כוכבים שלא עמדו בהר סיני - לא פסקה זוהמתן. 

 

 Talmud Bavli Yevamos 103a-b

Rav Yochanan said: seven beilos boel that rasha in that hour as it says
(Shoftim 5:27) between her legs he bent, he fell, he lay, between her feet
he bent, he fell where he bent there where he fell he lay.  But she
benefited/derived pleasure from the averah? Rav Yochanan said in the name of
Rav Shimon ben Yochai even the good of the rashaim is bad to the tzadikim as
it says (Breishis 31:29) guard yourself from speaking with Ya’akov either
good or bad, bad is fine, but good, why not? Rather derive from this, the
good of the rashaim are bad to the tzadikim, it is fine there because
perhaps [Lavan] would mention to him the name of his idol, but here, what
bad is here?  Because he sent into her zuhuma, as Rav Yochanan said:  in the
hour in which the nachas came on Chava, he put into her zuhuma, when Israel
stood at Har Sinai – their zuhuma finished, ovdei cochavim who did not stand
at Har Sinai – their zuhuma did not finish

 

>  Maybe that's implied in the pesukim but it is not stated.  I think that
there are differing opinions about whether she did or did not. ... Second of
all, there is disagreement as to whether Yael was even Jewish or not. 

 

So what is in the actual text of the Nach is irrelevant, as is the other
opinions (which indeed RDR brought from the Yalkut Shimoni).

 

The key thing we are discussing is that the gemora, in three places, defines
there as being a concept of “averah lishma”, and then goes on to bring Yael,
as understood by Rav Yochanan (ie the opinion that indeed she did have
relations with Sisera), as being the example par excellence of somebody who
did an averah lishma.  So whether or not Yael actually did have relations is
basically irrelevant to the attempt to understand the concept the gemora
brings of an averah lishma.   What we have is a definition of an averah
lishma, a prime example of which is somebody behaving like a Jewish Yael
like character having relations with a non Jewish Sisera like character– and
from there the gemora believes we can best understand what is being meant by
an averah lishma.    

 

So the question of whether or not the Navi covered something up is
irrelevant to the discussion, as is any question as to whether Yael was
Jewish or not.  The gemora is trying to teach the concept of an averah
lishma.  Now when RDR argued that there could not be a forbidden act, that
with intention could be turned into a permitted act, I said to him, how
about the concept of an averah lishma?  And he argued that this did not fit
the category of a forbidden act which with intention could be turned into a
permitted act (for reasons that I still fail to understand).  But in order
to argue the case, we have needed to argue the parameters of what is really
an averah lishma, and that means we have to discuss Yael, but only in the
form that the gemora, in discussing averah lishma assumes her to have acted,
otherwise we are not fleshing out the concept of an averah lishma.  You can
quite happily believe Yael never touched Sisera, and indeed was not Jewish,
but that belief will not help you understand what the gemora means by the
concept of an averah lishma.

 

>--Toby Katz
=============



Regards



Chana

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