[Avodah] Who is a Talmid Chacham

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 12:46:17PM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
:> First, if David haMelekh wasn't a TC yet...

: As Zev already pointed out, nobody says that TCs can't volunteer. They
: clearly did, as did Kohanim and Leviyim. It doesn't matter if he was or
: wasn't.

You questioned the notion that numerous gedolim did serve altogether, when
I compiled a list from Shofetim, David haMelekh, Benayahu, R' Aqiva, etc...
It seems now you're okay with them having served, because it was voluntary.

:> Second, how is it suddenly accepted chareidi thought that the shofetim
:> were /not/ gedolei Torah?

: Who said it is "accepted Chareidi thought"? Why is it "accepted non-Charedi
: thought" that every thought expressed by a Chareidi is "accepted Charedi
: thought"?

You were the chareidi in question. By suggesting that Yiftach was not
a gadol baTorah, you were opening yourself to the same questions R' Shach
asked about R' Shteinzaltz's early books.

: But, again, it is irrelevant to the discussion. The question is - can the
: govt. draft TCs.  Please provide a proof text that the govt. can *draft*
: them to the army, and how to reconcile that source with Sotah 10 and
: Nedarim 32, because everything else is utterly irrelevant.

I was addressing the tangent of arguing whether or not they had in the
past indeed served... If we're retiring that discussion with a chiluq
between serving and being drafted...

R' Yehudah's very complaint against Asa "afilu chasan meichedro vekalah
meichupaso" (Sotah 10a) is taken from the mishnah (44b) to refer to the
extent of the chiyuv for a milkhemes mitzvah. "Bameh devarim amurim,
bemilkhemes reshus, aval bemilkhemes mitzvah..."

Besides, as I already noted, Rav, who associates Asa's cheit with drafting
TC says it's because they are drafted for angarya. If it were the draft
altogether, and we assume he disagrees with R' Yehudah because it taqeh
/was/ a milkhemes mitzvah, why the rare Greek (transliterating the Greek
original: aggareia) loan word?

Which is also the problem the problem I would have learning anything
from what R' Avohu says on Nedaim 32 about why Avraham deserved our
being enslaved in Mitzrayim. There too it's, shena'aseh anagrya beTC,
with the rare lashon rather than usual terms for going off to war.
So again we're not sure it was a milkhemes mitzvah, and we're not sure
the problem was using TC to fight, or to collect the enemy's property.

Nor is it clear R' Avohu is the masqanah of that gemara. See the
subsequent machloqes of Rav and Shemuel on how to understand R' Avohu's
prooftext, neither of which fit R' Avohu's use of the pasuq. Rashi
follows Rav and Shmuel, by saying "vayireq es chanikhav" is that
Avraham stirred them up, which fits having a machloqes if he motivated
them with Torah or with gold. It doesn't fit the notion of drafting
them to gather enemy materiel.

There is only arguable indication from the Rambam that a TC can choose
to be midin sheivet leivi even when it comes to being drafted for a
milkhemes mitzvah. Sheivet leivi isn't listed in Hil' Melakhim, so we
can argue whether their petur applies for milkhemes mitzvah. And the
ability for anyone to assume the role of sheivet Leivi doesn't mention
whether this is also for the draft altogether. Nor is a petur for the
draft mentioned when discussing their petur for paying for the police.
So while the argument can be made, it is VERY far from clearcut proof.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
micha at aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter