[Avodah] Drops of wine

[Lisa Liel]

On 6/27/2012 6:56 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>: What I would be more curious of, assuming you (RAM) having been looking
>: through an (extensive?) Hagada collection is the answer to the original
>: question: how many hagaddos (and which ones) mention spilling for the
>: plagues because of decreased joy?

> In previous iterations, we also mentioned the hagaddah of R' SZ Aurbach['s
> talmidim] and it appears as a "yeish lomar" in that of R Elyashiv (pg 106,
> "dam va'eish").

I don't think any of these sources suggest that it's because *our* joy 
is lessened.  Rather, it's because we know that Hashem is, kaveyachol, 
grieving.  Just as we don't rejoice over the fall of an enemy who is one 
of our own, Hashem silenced the angels because the Egyptians were His 
own, even though they had behaved with enmity towards us and Hashem.

I have not seen a single source that says that *our* joy is lessened 
because the Egyptians drowned.  Not one.

> A third question: We only have one other, and better sourced, proposal:
> "Etzba Elokim hi". But Yekkes don't use an etzba, and even East Europeans
> allow istenisim to spill from the cup. What's the to'eles?

>: My point was, RZS's contention that this is an idea alien to Torah is
>: not correct, regardless of the source, as proven by the number of
>: widely: respected talmedei chachamim cite it.

> I made the same argument by pointing out that if such compassion were
> unJewish, so would giving the parallel explanation for Chatzi Hallel on
> the last day of Pesach. And yet /that/ has a solid pedigree.

And I think you misunderstand that explanation.  The parts of Hallel we 
omit in Chatzi Hallel are specifically the ones that are not praises of 
Hashem, but condemnations of bad guys.  Which dovetails precisely with 
the midrash about Hashem silencing the angels.


On 6/27/2012 1:28 AM, Daniel M. Israel wrote:
> When I first posted this quote from the Kol Dodi, my intention was to
> make the following point: regardless of who is right in RMB and RZS's
> discussion of the origin of the idea that we spill for the makkos to
> show that our joy is incomplete, it is in fact a well accepted notion
> in contemporary frum circles, and not just fringes with "lefty" ideas.
> My point was, RZS's contention that this is an idea alien to Torah is
> not correct, regardless of the source, as proven by the number of widely
> respected talmedei chachamim cite it.

Even widely respected talmidei chachamim can err and confuse alien ideas 
as our own.  As witness the recent discussion about widely respected 
talmidei chachamim quoting "Ein navi b'iro" as though it's a Jewish 
thought, when it's actually from the treyfer sefer.

Lisa