[Avodah] Drops of wine (was: Translation of "Yayyin")

[Lisa Liel]

The words are very clear, and R' Zev is obviously correct.

V'nohagim she-shofchim l'ibud ha-makkot, v'ein shotin otam.

The word "otam" clearly refers to the drops of wine.  Unless someone 
wants to argue that the line is saying "And we are accustomed to spill 
away the plagues and not to drink them."  R' Micha, you can't have it 
both ways.  If the seifa is talking about the drops, then so is the reisha.

Shofchim l'ibud means to waste them.  Like "holchim l'ibud" means going 
to waste.  The idea that "ibud ha-makkot" is a phrase meaning the losses 
caused by the plagues is utterly foreign to the Hebrew.  It would leave 
"shofchim" dangling in a way that simply isn't done.  Nor is the lamed 
before "ibud" properly translated as "for" or "out of consideration 
for".  That's an English phrasing that doesn't exist in Hebrew (though 
it may have gotten into Modern Hebrew by now).

I realize that this is simply an extension of the long running dispute 
between R' Micha on the one hand, and R' Zev and myself on the other as 
to whether we're supposed to rejoice over the downfall of our non-Jewish 
enemies.  This line does not support either position, however much R' 
Micha might wish otherwise.

Lisa

On 6/21/2012 5:51 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 21/06/2012 2:57 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 12:19:07PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> On 6/06/2012 2:09 PM, Zvi Lampel wrote:
>>>> Actually, I thought the translation preserves the ambiguity. The
>>>> Hebrew reads, "v'no-hagim sheh-shofchim L'EE-BUDE HA-MAKKOS v'ein
>>>> sho-sin o-som..... The translaton reads: "Traditionally, we do not
>>>> partake of the poured wine, out of consideration for the losses caused
>>>> by the plagues...."
>
>
>>>                                                       that this is a
>>> the plagues that happened to the Mitzrim!   All it says is that we
>>> pour the makos out to waste, rather than keeping them.
>
>> If the loss of a drop of wine is a makkah
>
> NO!  Where are you getting this?  I didn't say anything about a loss!
> The "makkos" here refers to *the spilled drops of wine*.
>
>
>> , then ibud hamakkos is to
>
> There is no "ibud hamakos".  It's "shofchin le'ibud, hamakos".  We
> pour the makos down the drain (or in the midden, before modern plumbing).
> This is poshut and obvious.
>
>
>> OTOH, if you mean that the wine is the symbol of a makkah, then you've
>> got:
>>      And we are accustomed to spill IN ORDER TO LOSE THE SYMBOL OF THE
>>      PLAGUE, and we do not drink them....
>
> "Le'abed" does not mean "to lose", it means "to destroy".  Contrary
> to what parents like to tell their children, "hame'abed mah shenosnin lo"
> doesn't mean one who loses what he is given, but one who destroys it.
> "Le'ibud" means "to destruction", or "to waste".  We spill the wine out
> and waste it, rather than drinking it ch"v.
>
>
>
>> In which case, we're saying the drop of wine is removed because it
>> is something to be lost. Which to my mind wouldn't fit a symbol of
>> "etzba E-lokim".
>
> I don't understand you; why would you *want* to drink Hashem's 
> punishment?
> "Lo asim alecha"!  It's bad.  Poison.  Send it to the klipos where it
> belongs.  (Some people used to have a custom to give it to a nochri
> to drink...)
>
>