[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[Zev Sero]

On 14/05/2012 9:46 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> We can agree that it's inappropriate to torture for no reason.

Just as it's forbidden to hit someone for no reason.  Therefore if we
are hitting someone, we've already established that there is a reason.


> I presume also to torture in order to retrieve a stolen quarters.

Why do you presume it?  Is it OK to hit someone for that reason?  If
not, then we don't need to ask about torture.  If yes, then on what
basis do you *presume* that torture is not also permitted?  Just
because it feels wrong?


> And that it's okay to torture someone who we know is in guilty
> posession of information that could save 2,823 people.
>
> So, where between those two values does halakhah permit torture?
>
> As I said, proving that one needs/some/  justification is sufficient
> to imply there must be a "shiur".

Not until we first establish that there is any separate issur on
torture, beyond the issur to inflict *any* harm on someone.

Your proposed kal vachomer was from tzaar baalei chayim, but in any case
where one could even contemplate using torture (i.e. where one has already
established that *some* kind of force is allowed) TzBCh doesn't apply, so
the KvCh doesn't work.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
zev at sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
		 are expanding through human ingenuity."
		                            - Julian Simon