[Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a

[Samuel Svarc]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 03:46:48PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> The criticism of Bar Kochva for not listening to the words of the
>> chachamim indicates that leaders absoultely should apply emunat
>> chachamim.
>
> Yeah, when they pasqen. Not daas Torah. BK violated halakhah, not just
> advice.

And Daas Torah today is not a psak? Do you think they dragged Bar
Kochva into a BD and there was mishpat? Chachomim told him what to do
and he did what he considered to be geopolitically correct, and he's
faulted for this. Today when Chachomim inform us how to act, its
precisely the same thing.

> I read teridin as a constant description, "they are always busy with their
> texts instead of what people are doing." Also not in the past. Not in
> the future once appointed. But a description of the typical TC's nature.
>
> Again, not that they're too busy to respond, but too busy to be aware
> of the metzi'us.

Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura = He is busy with learning,
not with civil administration. Your interpretation should have Rashi
using other terms, e.g.  'bemilei deolam' = worldly matters. Further,
as the examples brought by RLL and myself show, when TC do involve
themselves in matters of Klal Yisroel the ones who ignore their lead
are faulted by Chazal. According to your interpretation, this puts R'
Akiva at loggerheads with Chazal, a farcical outcome.

E.g. A city's TC will pasken that usage of the Internet by anyone
under 40 who hasn't finished one round of Shas and Poskim is
prohibited (yes, the usage of the ban on Kaballah is intentional).
This is a clear psak, which according to you then triggers the Chazal
seen by Bar Kochba. At the same time, it runs afoul (according to your
interpretation) of R' Akiva. If, OTOH, we disregard your
interpretation, and read the words plainly, we'll explain them as TC
should not be involved in the civil administration of the Internet
Licensing Bureau in that city. This is in accordance with R' Akiva's
advice and doesn't contradict what Chazal have told us in countless
places throughout Shas.

KT,
MSS