[Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a

[Samuel Svarc]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:39:47PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> No, I think he simply means that a TC is likely to neglect his public
>> responsibilities through a reluctance to take time from learning, and
>> necessary public improvements will not get done, or will take longer
>> than they should.  He's not talking about dayonim, he's talking about
>> the mayor and the public works department....
>
> He's talking about "rasheiha" (to quote R' Aqiva). The mayor and so
> on. Not sure about public works, though.
>
> The notion of daas Torah is about applying emunas chakhamim to questions
> that revolve around metzi'us, rather than Torah. And I think R' Aqiva
> here says it's not a good idea.
>
> I don't see "yitrod" (Zev's answer), nor "TC she'eino tarid" (as per
> Lisa's). To me it seems clear that a TC shouldn't be appointed to lead
> the city because he invested the time to know Torah, and therefore can't
> run a city as well as someone who spent more time knowing society.

The term being used is present tense, the same as the instruction
being given. R' Akiva tells his son, "Don't live in a city where the
leaders are TC", Rashi explains, "Because they are too busy learning
to deal with day to day affairs".

Does this then follow to your assertion that TC lack the inherent
knowledge about the world's realities, or is RZS correct that it means
the daya to day affairs need to be taken care of by baalie baatim
while the decisions can (and I add, should be) made by TC? I tender
from "Den li Yavne v'Chachamiehu" your assertion is refuted, and we
see plainly that the TC (and only the TC) had the insight to realize
the true realities and the wisdom to actually implement it.

> But my point about R Aqiva disrecommending relying on DT stands even
> if I were able to see his objection as an inability to invest the time
> going forward, and would work even better if I thought R' Aqiva was
> speaking only of a TC who isn't also a baqi in civil matters. (Rather
> than, as it looks to me, assuming no TC could be.)

Again, neither of your interpertations for R' Akiva are correct. TC,
by virtue of being a true TC, know far more then anyone how things
should be, but can't give up learning to implement it. Thus the
arrangement of a Moetzes that makes decisions and a Hanhalla that is
composed of baalie baatim that implement them (the structure of Agudas
Yisroel) is what R' Akiva mandates.

KT,
MSS