[Avodah] Theoretical and Real Shiurim

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 03:06:31PM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: As already discussed to death repeatedly on Avodah, the CC did not
: measure out his own shiurim at the seder....
: Which leads me to ask... Do we know if the CI followed his own shiurim
: lemaaseh, or did he measure matzah by thinking "well, that's certainly
: at least as much as my father" -- the Kosover Rav -- "would have eaten"?
: Was he more of a textualist than the CC?

I think my question frustrated RDBannett, since he answered this question
for us in the past.

>From 29 Sep 99 <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n019.shtml#05>:
    The Hafetz Hayyim's cup not meeting the Hazon Ish's revi'it may be a legend...

As I noted, I since confirmed that it was true.

                                                                       It
    is almost certainly not a legend that the kazayit matza that the
    Hazon Ish used at his seder, as witnessed by R' Hayyim Kanievsky, was
    approximately half of the kazayit he lists in his Kuntress Ha-shiurim.

    This was published (in Moriah??) quite some years ago and was quoted a
    few years ago by Prof. Avi Greenfield in his article on the relation
    between the beitza and kazayit (it might have been in Tehumin). If
    somebody insists, I can probably find the exact source by searching
    in my piles of paper or, probably, much easier, get it by telephoning
    to Prof. Greenfield

And on 1 Apr 2000 <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n476.shtml#03>,
he wondered why we needed to repeat the topic, but since we did,
RDB added what he hadn't realized at the time was a lot more detail:

    ...
    Although the kazayit matza shi'ur given by the the Hazon Ish in his
    Kuntres Hashi'urim is 33 cc., R' Hayyim Kanievsky, who attended the
    Hazon Ish's seder, said that the Hazon Ish gave out a kazayit of about
    17 cc. R' Hayyim states also that his father, R' Ya'akov Kanievsky,
    used a similar size.

    I have lived through an era of change. I remember when the kazayit
    was given as 1/3 of a machine matza. A few years later it was up to
    1/2 matza. Today, or rather the last few times I heard, it seems to
    have stabilized at one whole machine matza. As the kazayit has gone
    up, the eating time limit, kedei akhilat peras, has gone down from
    9 to 4 to 2 minutes. I failed in my attempts to find a mathematical
    formula for the non-linear automatic compensation factor.

    I remember too that I posted in the past a reference to Prof. Avi
    Greenfield's article on the kazayit - beitza relationship which also
    lists and has diagrams displaying the various shitot in kazayit size.

    From my summary of Prof AG's article:
                                                Volume  Diameter

        R' Hayyim Volozhiner                     3 cc    4.6 cm (1.8")
        (K'zayit shel yamenu)

        Hazon Ish, lema'aseh                    17 cc   11 cm (4.3")
        (as per eidut of R' H. Kanievsky) 

        R' Avraham Hayyim Na'eh                 27 cc   14 cm (5.5")

        Hazon Ish (lefi Kuntres Hashiurim)      33 cc   15.3 cm (6.0")

        Mishnah Brurah                          60 cc   20.6 cm (8.1")
        (k'beitza shel yamenu)

    The approximate diameters given are for a circular shaped hand matza
    with a thickness of 1.8 mm (11/64").

    I think there is much to learn from the Chatam Sofer's chumra as
    stated in the Hagadat Soferim.. He would take the two zeitim of
    matza, hold them close to his mouth and then make the berakhot. He
    then inserted the two zeitim bit by bit into his mouth but did
    not swallow. He chewed each bit and then moved it into his left
    cheek. When the two zeitim were all in his left cheek, he swallowed
    the entire two zeitim at one time.

    I'd like to see anyone put two chewed whole machine matzos into
    his left cheek. I don't think a pelican could do it. If the pelican
    could fit them in, he might still choke when swallowing all at once.

And similarly a number of other iterations, but 2000 appears to be the
most full version.

Interestingly enough, all this means is that while theory is out of line
with historical zeisim (not that I think the shiur needs to be constant
over the generations), actual practice until the mid-20th century was
actually more in line with the evidence!

Tying in another thread:
The question is not, as RDBHaim put it, bringing halakhah in line with
reality. (Something I question deeply.) Rather, it's bringing sifrei
halakhah in line with toras imekha / toras umasekha / minhag yisrael /
mimeticism combined with evidence that minhag conforms to Chazal more
than the sefrei halakhah do.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
micha at aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)