[Avodah] Translation of "Yayyin"

[Zvi Lampel]

 On 6/3/2012 11:58 PM, Daniel Israel wrote [on Areivim]:
> ...(I note also that in the English edition of RDFeinstein's Kol Dodi,
> this notion [about sorrow over the loss of wicked enemies' lives] is
> given as an explanation as to why we don't drink the wine that has
> been removed.  I thought the original Hebrew was slightly more
> ambiguous, but maybe I'm misreading it.  I note that list chaver R'
> Zvi Lampel is credited as original translator, I wonder if he has
> anything he might contribute?)

Actually, I thought the translation preserves the ambiguity. The
Hebrew reads, "v'no-hagim sheh-shofchim L'EE-BUDE HA-MAKKOS v'ein
sho-sin o-som..... The translaton reads: "Traditionally, we do not
partake of the poured wine, out of consideration for the losses caused
by the plagues...." (But I do note that the translation switches the
"loss consideration" from what may be more literally associated with
the spilling alone, and not the partaking of the yayyin alone.) I do
not know offhand whether the expression "l'ee-bude ha-makkos" is the
one used by the Abudraham, etc. And I cannot be certain whether the
"losses caused by the plagues" are necessarily referring to the loss of
Egyptian lives. I did not ask Rav Dovid Feinstein about this.

However, getting somewhat off topic, and probably into Avodah territory,
I would like to mention something that I did ask Reb Dovid about. My
rebbi held (as others) that grape juice is perfectly fine for arba
kosos. In fact, he preferred it, for purposes of keeping alert during
the seder. Aware of that, I asked Reb Dovid about Rav Moshe's apparent
insistence (reflected in the "Kol Dodi Haggada") on wine versus grape
juice, and the maximum amount of grape juice one may bi-di'eved mix into
the wine. I raised the issue that I've seen many people neglect drinking
the shiur because it is hard for them to have so much wine. Reb Dovid
shrugged and said, "If they can't drink wine, let them drink grape juice"!

One of the Kol Dodi Haggada's proof that grape juice is inferior is from
the Rashbam, who explains "ta'am yayyin" means "yayyin ha-mesha-kare." I
so wanted to put it in those terms -- that Rashbam holds that the "taste
of yayyin" means the power to intoxicate, from which Rav Moshe deduced
that one should use wine rather than grape juice. But my superiors at
Artscroll nixed that, and insisted that the translation reads, "What is
meant by 'the taste of wine?' And later continues, "Accordingly, wine
that does not intoxicate -- such as grape juice -- would not qualify as
most preferable." I maintained that translating "yayyin' as wine, rather
than leaving it transliterated, obfuscates the actual issue, which is
whether the word "yayyin" does in fact refer only to wine and not grape
juice. (My rebbi held that the power of intoxication is in 'yayyin'
itself -- not alcohol. And if we are not sensitive to that -- or if an
Amora happened to be super-sensitive to grape juice -- that does not
negate the fact.) And grape juice is not "wine that does not intoxicate."

Zvi Lampel