[Avodah] achashveros

[Lisa Liel]

On 3/10/2012 2:25 PM, Eli Turkel wrote:
> << Honestly.  He wrote an entire book arguing about how Chazal were 
> totally
> wrong about the Persian period.  The fascinating thing is that his 
> primary reason for holding this position is that Greek sources say 
> they were.  But then in this article, he suggests numerous times that
> Herodotus was wrong about fairly major things. >>
>
> The problem is that Tanach agrees with Herodotus and not with Chazal. 
> In order for the Talmud to use their chronology they are forced to say 
> that various different names in Tanach refer to the same king while in 
> fact the list aligns exactly with various Greek sources.

It doesn't, really.  Nor does the Tanach agree with Herodotus.  I mean, 
we could just go straight to Darius the Mede, who doesn't exist in Greek 
sources at all, let alone Herodotus.  That alone disproves your assertion.

But then there are the kohanim gedolim.  If Yehotzadak was kohen gadol 
during Bayit Rishon, he must have been at least 30, yes?  If he was 
still alive in the second year of Darius the Persian, he would have been 
at least 100 years old.  It's unlikely that Yeshua, who was the kohen 
gadol at that time, would have been much younger than 80 (although 
granted, that's not provable one way or the other).

Nechemiah 13:4-6 says that Yeshua's grandson Elyashiv was kohen gadol in 
the 32nd year of Artachshast.  According to the Greek chronology, 
Artaxerxes I's 32nd year was 87 years after Darius's 2nd year.  Never 
mind any of the later Artaxerxeses.  Even if Elyashiv was 70 at the 
time, that still leaves a good century in age between him and his 
grandfather, which is fairly unlikely.

But it's Darius the Mede who really kills the idea of Tanach agreeing 
with Herodotus.

> Furthermore it is highly unlikely that Greek historians made up the 
> Greco-Persian wars. Cyrus captured some Ionian islands and eventually 
> Babylonia. Darius of course had major battles against the Greeks 
> including Marathon in 490 BCE,
> The Peloponnesian War*,* is usually given as 431 to 404 BCE. ie it 
> ended almost 90 years later way more than the entire length of the 
> Persian empire according to Chazal. It is again highly unlikely that 
> Greek historians could be that far off on events that most Greeks 
> would know about.

Who suggests that the Greeks invented the Greco-Persian wars?  Does it 
make sense to use dates for Marathon that you *know* will be different 
under Chazal's chronology?  This isn't Artscroll, where they're quite 
happy using 421 for the destruction of the First Temple and keeping 
Marathon's conventional date.

If you want to see how the Greeks got confused (probably), it's fairly 
simple.

     Cyrus II            Cyrus the Great
     Cambyses II         Cambyses II
     Darius I            Darius the Persian
     Xerxes I            Ahasuerus III
     Artaxerxes I        Darius the Persian
     ----------------------------------------
     Darius II           Darius the Mede
     Cyrus III           Cyrus the Great
     Artaxerxes II       Ahasuerus II
     Artaxerxes III      Darius the Persian
     Arses (Xerxes II)   Ahasuerus III
     Darius III          Darius the Persian

On the left we have the ten kings of the Persian Empire accepted by 
mainstream scholarship, with the addition of Cyrus the Younger, who has 
been added to the list despite the fact that he lost his bid for the 
throne and in so doing was declared to be no more than an usurper, after 
the fact.  On the right we have the names given these same kings 
according to the Jewish historical tradition. Finally, we have split the 
list after Artaxerxes I and before Darius II.

What we find is two separate lists.  The first lists the Persian 
succession from the fall of Babylon to the fall of Persia.  The second 
lists the Medo-Persian succession over the same period.  That's of 
course according to the idea that there was a rotation agreement between 
the Persians and Medes, which is what our sources say was that case.

So that's part of it.  Another part of it is that Darius the Mede was 
the son of Ahasuerus the Mede, who reigned during the Babylonian Empire, 
as did Cyrus I and Cambyses I (who are attested to from the Behistun 
Inscription of Darius I).  Tanach says that Nebuchadnezzar fought 
against the isles of the sea.  But he clearly didn't do so according to 
any Babylonian inscriptions.  On the other hand, since he was Great 
King, and other kings (including the king of the Medes) were subordinate 
to him, he certainly could have been "credited" with those military 
campaigns if they were fought by a Medo-Persian army as his vassals.  
Marathon could have happened at that time.

Lisa
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