[Avodah] Clear Thinking about Male Homosexuals

[T613K at aol.com]

From: "Jonathan Baker" _jjbaker at panix.com_ (mailto:jjbaker at panix.com) 

> [2]  It  is not true that people feel no instinctive revulsion at  
>  father-daughter incest.  On the contrary, what Lot did with his  
daughters  is 
> considered something shameful and disgusting, and  the daughter who named 
her  child 
> "Moav -- from Father" -- is  condemned as particularly brazen.  [--TK]

>>Actually, the  evidence you cite, that it is condemned, attests exactly 
the
opposite of what  you want to prove.  Lot's daughters was a natural act,
for stated  reasons.  It is condemned BY THE TORAH, which DEFINES incest
as an  illegal act.  So Lot's daughters are prima facie evidence that 
incest  is natural, if not normative.

 
In fact, the Gemara in, I think, Shabbos, somewhere in the 80s I  think, 
says that Bnei Yisrael cried over their [forbidden] relations when  they
were given the Torah, because now those relationships were defined  as
forbidden.<<



name: jon  baker             






>>>>>
 
No not natural, they had to get their father drunk before he would commit  
such an act.  And their stated reason was that there were no other men in  
the world -- otherwise they never would have done such a thing.  And Lot's  
daughters had no obligation to keep the Torah, so they would not have been  
condemned as brazen for failing to keep the Torah.  It is not even  forbidden 
as one of the sheva mitzvos!  But it is nevertheless considered  an ugly 
and shameful act which even goyim would find shameful.
 
There is no case in the Torah where an Israelite married or had a  
relationship with his daughter.  Avraham married a half-sister (not  stated in the 
text though), Yakov married two sisters, Yehudah married his  daughter-in-law 
yibumically, Amram married his aunt.  One could imagine the  Jews being 
upset at finding out that these relationships will not be permitted  in the 
future, but nowhere is there a hint of a suggestion of anyone marrying or  
wanting to marry his own daughter.
 

--Toby  Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good  hair


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