[Avodah] reality

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 05:51:05PM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
> On 11/23/2011 5:07 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> Is the metaphysical basis of the laws of nature "the 'real' universe"
>> or more like the list of phenomena that shape souls? Tir'u baTov!

> I don't know what either of those options mean, nor do I know why you
> think they constitute a complete list of possibilities.  Furthermore, I
> don't know what a metaphysical basis is.

I was paraphrasing your post, and asking who you were agreeing or
disagreeing with.

To give peirush to my previous posting:

    > RSN (citing someone):
    >> in general, whenever Chazal make a scientific statement, they are not
    >> talking about the observable universe but rather the "real" universe.

    > RMB:
    >> Chazal don't speak of reality as it is, but reality as we are able to
    >> experience it directly.

    On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 09:19:02AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
    > See the beginning of the sixth Be'er in Be'er HaGolah (in Rabbi
    > Hartman's edition try p. 145). The Maharal's formulation is that Hazal
    > spoke, not about the laws of nature, but about the divine laws which
    > induce the laws of nature.

    Is the metaphysical basis of the laws of nature "the 'real' universe"
    or more like the list of phenomena that shape souls?

"Metaphysical basis" was an attempt to describe the Maral's "Divine laws
which induce the laws of the universe.

"The 'real universe' was a reference to the position RSN cited.

"Phenomena that shape souls", was an attempt to describe my proposal
that halakhah is only concerned with things that could be sensed by an
unaided person.

And thus I was asking whether you thought the Maharal supported RSN's
position or my own. The notion that it's a third position hadn't occured
to me. Personally, I don't think it is a distinct position, but rather
one that could include either.

Which the Maharal meant, IMHO, depends on is how events in higher olamos
are connected to ones in ours. The NhC says that only the human soul has
kochos from all the olamos (1:6), and therefore is the connection between
physics and those prior Divine laws. (Text available at he.wikisource.org,
<http://bit.ly/vfHFpS>.)

So, it would seem from the Nefesh haChaim that the only way to move
higher olamos is to move the self, and in fact therefore all metaphysical
causality depends on world to nefesh and ruach to higher levels of soul.

I don't think Chassidim would agree. And this shows itself in Litvish
vs Chassidish attitudes toward invoking segulos, for example.

If the above is the right chiluq, my question becomes which did the
Maharal hold -- did he believe that the only way to impact higher olamos
is to first impact the soul, or did he believe that other connections
exist?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I thank God for my handicaps, for, through them,
micha at aishdas.org        I have found myself, my work, and my God.
http://www.aishdas.org                - Helen Keller
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