[Avodah] More Tzaar

[Micha Berger]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 02:40:02PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
>>> There's no p'tur of mitztaer on the first night! How is this a proof of
>>> anything?

>> I believe you're taking two sides of the same machloqes. If you hold  
>> that mitzta'er renders the booth a non-sukkah, then you hold that  
>> mitzta'er is a petur on the first night -- you have no Sukkah to go to!

> Am I correct in guessing that you haven't actually looked in Har'rei  
> Kedem? ...

Yes, I heard RYBS in a recording, I don't recall of which shiur, and
presumed his presentation of the story was consistent with the one that
made it to print.

>         Here's my translation of the relevant bit: "R. Moshe responded  
> to him that in any case he's obliged.  Everyone agrees that mitztaer is  
> obliged to eat the first kezayis on the first night [in the sukka].  The  
> person who exempts does so only on the grounds that the sukka is unfit  
> as a residence during rainfall; it lacks the status (shem) of sukka and  
> lacks the status of residence (dirah)."

>   The implication is that according to those opinions which permit  
> eating inside there can be no kiyum until the rain stops.  Hence RMS  
> woke up his children at that point.

I think the difference between us is wording: whether you want to call
"i efshar", the permission not to sit in a sukkah when none exists, is
to be called a "petur", or you avoid the term -- in your translation,
by using the English "exempts".

If you look at the text you're replying to, I called "you have no Sukkah
to go to" a petur, something HK says as "The person who exempts does so
only on the grounds that the sukka is unfit".

>> BTW, I since found in Reshimos Shi'urim, Sukkah pg 92, that RYBS draws
>> the conclusion I did from the story. He makes a chiluq between where the
>> sukkah and the space within it causes the tza'ar, and when the tza'ar
>> is getting to the Sukkah.

> Yes, the conclusions there are very different than in Har'rei Kedem...

Not having seen HK but only your summary thereof (and hearing RYBS telling
the story, in what was probably a 3rd setting) I have no idea how you see
the two as different. Just as I don't see how your translation differs
in substance from what I wrote.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
micha at aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
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