[Avodah] moon and sun

[Zev Sero]

On 24/08/2011 4:24 PM, Simi Peters wrote:

> I would be interested in R' Zev's take on midrashic sources to the
> effect that animals sing shira to God (e.g., the midrash about the
> cows in Sefer Shmuel).

I'm sorry, which midrash is this?

We know animals and have a lot of experience with them.  We run
psychological experiments on them, and have a pretty good idea of what
they're capable of.  We have no such knowledge of the celestial bodies.


> Once again, I understand these sorts of statements to mean that when
>  we contemplate the beauty of nature and its workings we experience it
> as a form of song or poetry, not that animals literally and consciously
> sing.

Why "we experience it"?  Why not "it *is* a song"?  Why does the song
need an observer in order to exist?

> The message is in our minds, not in the animals' actions.

I'd say the exact opposite; the song is in their actions, not their
minds.  They may not be conscious of their Creator, but their very
existence and every one of their actions sings His praise.


> Why can't the speaking of the moon be understood the same way?

Because there's a whole conversation, with consequences.


> A lot of the midrashim that feature arguments between God and the
> malakhim can be understood this way as well--the perspective of the
> malakhim represents some of the questions or problems we have with
> His conduct of the world or are a way of presenting a different
> perspective (Hazal's thought experiments) to explore. Consider,
> for example, midrashim on malakhim arguing with God about bri'at
>ha'adam or the midrash in which the malakhim ask why God saves
> am Yisrael at Yam Suf, but kills the Egyptians, given that they
> are all idol worshippers.

How about the malachim wanting to join us in singing shira at the Sea,
and Hashem telling them that we were to sing and they were not to?
How is that happening in our minds?  How is that a lesson to us,
considering that we *were* to sing?


> The midrash about the malakhim weeping at  akedat Yitzhak is clearly
> anthropomorphism, because malakhim can't cry.

Why not?


> We might even argue that there is no other way to read midrashim of
> this type, since malakhim don't have behira hofshit and hence could
> hardly question God.

How does that follow?  They may not have freedom of action, but they
clearly do have minds of their own.



-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
zev at sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
		                            - Yitzchak Rabin