[Avodah] moon and sun

[Simi Peters]

Just to point out:  all the meforshim you have quoted from the Meorot Hadaf 
are aharonim.  There is historically something of a change on this subject 
from the rishonim to the aharonim, with the rishonim overwhelmingly 
following the Rambam's approach and the aharonim backtracking away from that 
to more literal readings.  (I have always found that kind of intriguing, 
given that generally later sources are not holek on earlier sources unless 
they have an earlier source that provides validation for that challenge. 
Could it be that the aharonim were facing sociological problems that the 
rishonic approach gave them no help with?  Thoughts--or better yet, evidence 
for this, anyone?)  In any event, what do the rishonim say on this midrash?

Also, both the Maharitz Hajes and the Hatam Sofer are reading the midrash in 
a way that does not *necessitate* a literal understanding, though the Lev 
Arye does indeed seem to be taking it quite literally. (Please bear in mind 
that I have seen none of these sources inside and am only responding to R' 
Eli's presentation of them.)

I would be interested in R' Zev's take on midrashic sources to the effect 
that animals sing shira to God (e.g., the midrash about the cows in Sefer 
Shmuel).  Once again, I understand these sorts of statements to mean that 
when we contemplate the beauty of nature and its workings we experience it 
as a form of song or poetry, not that animals literally and consciously 
sing.  The message is in our minds, not in the animals' actions.  Why can't 
the speaking of the moon be understood the same way?  The moon 'speaks' to 
us, i.e., it conveys a message to us because of what it symbolizes or the 
ways in which we relate to it associatively.

A lot of the midrashim that feature arguments between God and the malakhim 
can be understood this way as well--the perspective of the malakhim 
represents some of the questions or problems we have with His conduct of the 
world or are a way of presenting a different perspective (Hazal's thought 
experiments) to explore.  Consider, for example, midrashim on malakhim 
arguing with God about bri'at ha'adam or the midrash in which the malakhim 
ask why God saves am Yisrael at Yam Suf, but kills the Egyptians, given that 
they are all idol worshippers.  The midrash about the malakhim weeping at 
akedat Yitzhak is clearly anthropomorphism, because malakhim can't cry.  We 
might even argue that there is no other way to read midrashim of this type, 
since malakhim don't have behira hofshit and hence could hardly question 
God.

Kol tuv,
Simi Peters

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eli Turkel" <eliturkel at gmail.com>
To: "avodah" <avodah at aishdas.org>
Cc: "Micha Berger" <micha at aishdas.org>; "Simi Peters" 
<familyp2 at actcom.net.il>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 PM
Subject: moon and sun


>> What does it mean that moon and sun talked - they are inanimate
>
> How do you know?  The Rambam says they are intelligent; what grounds
> exist to question that?  >>
>
> I am having trouble believing that Zev is serious. Does he know that men 
> have
> landed on the moon and they did not talk to the moon. The sun consists
> of gases undergoing
> various nuclear reactions.
>
> We can ask a question on the Rambam what is the origin of his theory.
> The whole difference between modern and ancient science is that
> ancient science rested on
> authority while modern science relies on experimental evidence. I
> understand that Zev
> prefers ancient science where we prove scientific facts by quoting a 
> Rambam.
>
> Micha and Simi both intreret the midrash metaphorically which I
> personally agree with.
> My problem is that many meforshim take it literally. From the recent
> Meorot Hadaf
> Maharatz Chajes explains that because the moon was diminished it
> caused people to worship the sun
> because now the sun is special. Thus we bring a "sair" on rosh chodesh
> to stress our worship of G-d.
> The Chatam Sofer explains that because of the sins of the Jews the
> galut is lengthened causing the
> moon to have to wait longer to regain its size and so the Jews need a 
> kapparah.
> Also Lev Aryeh has a discussion why we need to worry about the moon
> since it was diminsihed because
> of its own argument and hence it is the moon's fault. He answers the
> sun originally was much bigger
> but was diminished by G-d because the world didnt need it (chagigah
> 12a). As a consequence the moon
> was diminished. The moon's request was that the sun be restored to its
> original size and then the moon could keep its original size.
>
>
> -- 
> Eli Turkel