[Avodah] emes

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 03:31:47PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I don't agree.  If implications differ from historical fact, that's  
> fine.  But if an actual statement of fact is factually untrue, I have a  
> real problem with that.

My point is that the only people claiming these stories are necessarily
fact are people today. Chazal, when they told an aggadita, took the
attitude must like yours:
> When I teach classes, one of the first things I do is tell the people  
> there that as far as I'm concerned, every single midrash and aggadeta is  
> true, without exception.  But not every one of them is factual...

(Personally, I would say "historical", but that's just quibbling
over which language is more clear. True vs fact is more confusing
IMHO than true vs history. "Fact" has multiple definitions, and much
epistomological garbage goes on by people who switch meanings mid-course
without noticing -- a "Definist Fallacy". Something I realized following
some scjm debates.)

This is why I do not consider the question of historicity of an aggadic
story to be one of emes. Much the same reason you don't. Which is why I
question if you really "don't agree".

>> History inspires. Some (R Prof Y Levine) more than others (me). But it
>> isn't the central topic of Torah. So, why is this the particular emes
>> we need to explore? Why can't we just leave the question open, and
>> focus on those things the mesorah does?

Isn't this the same thing you'r saying? I phrased it as mesorah cares
about the lesson, and doesn't bother determining which meshalim were
created by taking a historical event to illustrate the point, and which
are invented stories.

Torah isn't history, studying it usually doesn't require deciding
historical questions. And someone who thinks it does revolve around
historicity means they're not placing emphasis on the same topics as
chazal did.

What part of that would you disagree with? As far as I can tell from
your reply, you are actually agreeing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What we do for ourselves dies with us.
micha at aishdas.org        What we do for others and the world,
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