[Avodah] Kofin Oso

[Chana Luntz]

Yesterday I brought some of the key gemoras that discuss the concept of
rotze ani, but to balance that out, you also need to see the gemora on Get
Meusa, which seems to give a very different picture:

 This is Gitten 88b:

מתני'. גט מעושה, בישראל - כשר, ובעובדי כוכבים - פסול; ובעובדי כוכבים, חובטין
אותו ואומרים לו עשה מה שישראל אומרים לך (וכשר). 
   
גמ'. אמר ר"נ אמר שמואל: גט המעושה בישראל, כדין - כשר, שלא כדין - פסול ופוסל;
ובעובדי כוכבים, כדין - פסול ופוסל, שלא כדין - אפי' ריח הגט אין בו. מה נפשך?
אי עובדי כוכבי' בני עשויי נינהו, איתכשורי נמי ליתכשר! אי לאו בני עשויי
נינהו, מיפסל לא ליפסל! אמר רב משרשיא: דבר תורה גט מעושה בעובדי כוכבי' כשר,
ומה טעם אמרו: פסול? שלא תהא כל אחת ואחת הולכת ותולה עצמה בעובד כוכבי',
ומפקעת עצמה מיד בעלה. אי הכי, שלא כדין אפי' ריח הגט אין בו, ונהוי שלא כדין
כישראל, ומפסיל נמי לפסול! אלא, הא דרב משרשיא בדותא היא. וטעמא מאי? כדין
בכדין דישראל מיחלף, שלא כדין בכדין ישראל לא מיחלף.

"Mishna:  A get produced by force, with a Jew, the get is kosher, with a non
Jew, the get is posel, and with a non Jew if they hit him and say to him do
that which the Jew says to you it is kosher.

Gemora:  Rav Nachman said in the name of Shmuel:  A get forced by a Jew,
k’din is kosher, shelo k’din – is posel.  And with a Non Jew, k’din is posel
u’posel [she cannot marry a kohen],  and k’lo k’din even the scent of a get
there isn’t.  What is the difference?  If non Jews are able to do this, then
the get should be valid, and if not, [why is she not permitted to marry a
kohen].  Rav Mersharshia said, according to the Torah a forced get by non
Jews is kosher, and for what reason did they say it was posel, so that each
one should not go and put herself into the hands of the non Jews to uproot
herself from her husband.  But if so, shelo k’din [why did Shmuel rule] that
even the scent of a get there isn’t, if it is shelo k’din, then it should be
just like with a Yisrael, and it should also posel her [from marrying a
kohen].  Rather, that which Rav Mesharshia says is not true.  But what is
the reason, that if it is done k’din, then it may be confused with a Jew who
did it k’din.  But shelo k’din will not be confused with a Jew k’din."

As you can see, this gemora puts a very different spin on the whole idea of
forcing a get and when it is valid.  It flat out rejects Rav Mesharshia, who
seemed to be the maskana of the gemora we saw previously, and introduces a
concept of k'din and lo k'din.  It also does not relate to the pasuk that we
brought previously and the braisa that interprets that.  

The question therefore is, how do you reconcile the various gemoras
regarding rotze ani with this gemora.   That is clearly what the rishonim
grapple with.

Shabbat Shalom

Chana