[Avodah] soup

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

(This post is from the perspective of current practices among Americans. It may not apply to other cultures.)

When I suggested that soup is a liptan, R' David Riceman responded:

> No one, if you cut him a slice of bread, asks for soup to go
> with it, but, if you give someone some soup, he might ask for
> bread to go with it.  Liftan is something you use to accompany
> bread, not something you use bread to accompany.

It is very difficult for me to respond to this, precisely becuase our style of eating is so very different than that which the seforim describe. Bread has nothing remotely near the status and importance it used to have, and is not considered that mainstay of the meal anymore.

If you give someone some soup, he might indeed ask for some bread to go with it, the same way that if you gave him a salad he would ask for some dressing. But just as one would not put salad dressing on the table without already planning to have a salad, one would also not say, "Here's some bread. What would you like with it? We have some peanut butter, or perhaps you'd prefer a steak or some eggplant parmigiana."

Very few people today, when they are planning a meal, ask themselves, "What would go well with the bread?" Rather, they decide on the kind of food they want, and *then* they will add bread to the menu if it is a sort of food that goes well with bread, or if halacha/minhag requires bread at the meal. There are also cases where the ambience of the meal is enhanced by serving bread, but again, that bread is servicing the food, not the other way around.

Then I suggested that soup is an appetizer, and RDR responded:

> But why is soup different from fruit?

Excellent point. I suggest that soup is NOT different from fruit. When eaten as a dessert, let both get a bracha. When eaten as an appetizer, let both be covered by hamotzi.

> Over Shabbos I looked at Hayyei Adam Klal 43, and I was intrigued
> to find that EVERY example he gave of something that's not part
> of the meal is fruit.  The impression I came away with is that
> he, like you, really wanted to say that everything you eat during
> a meal is part of a meal, but he was stuck because of precedent,
> so rather than redefining his concept of a meal he simply decided
> that fruit is a unique case.

The odd thing, as I see it, is that soup is not mentioned anywhere in these simanim. It is true, as you say, that no one specifically mentions soup as a food which is not part of the meal. But they also don't mention it as being a food which *is* part of the meal. Isn't that odd? (We do know that soup is not a recent invention, because they taught us about the Bracha Rishona on vegetable broth.) Why didn't they mention how/whether soup fits into the meal?

Actually, as I look at the list of foods which they tell us are or are not part of the meal, I see another glaring omission: Cake. The entire category of Pas Habaa B'kisnin is omitted. (Or maybe I just don't remember where it appears.) And thus the debate over whether to say a bracha on cake as dessert.

My guess is that they never intended to give a complete list of all foods, telling us which are meal-foods and which are not. And the reason why they never bothered to tell us, I suggest, is because it is something which depends on the eating habits in each time and place. So they gave a few clear examples, and let us figure out the rest. If so, then we are free to look at our own practices, and judge soup accordingly.

Akiva Miller

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