[Avodah] Tznius

[T613K at aol.com]

Old TK:
> RZ in Israel and some Lubavitchers and some borderline RW in  America 
> often wear ankle-length skirts, but mainly for fashion.  

> In the past ten or twenty years, there has been a kind of fashion  
> movement among certain groups of RZ in Israel who have been influenced  
> by the chareidi community.  Their conscience no longer lets them  go 
> bare-legged, because of the way chareidi women and chardal women  
> dress, but they don't want to wear stockings either, so in this group  
> you do see the pattern you've mentioned -- long skirts with sandals,  
> no stockings. 

From: menucha _menu at inter.net.il_ (mailto:menu at inter.net.il) 
> sorry to confuse your speculation with the facts but the  reason we wear
> long skirts is halachic. based on the more machmir opinion of  definition
> of shok.

"We"? You and how many others? Yes I know that there are RW RZ who
a) hold that legs must be covered down to the ankle and b) hold that
a long skirt, without stockings, fulfills that requirement. But that
psak is very recent; it definitely had not been promulgated yet in the
'80's or '90's, when you first started seeing that look among the RZ.
And even today it is the look of only a very small percentage of RZ and
almost zero percent of MO in America. (And BTW do you actually hold that
it is assur to wear transparent stockings? that the calf is part of the
"shok" and thus the bare-toed RZ maidens are actually more tzniusdik
than the chareidi women who cover their shins AND toes with stockings?!)

The norm among RW and chareidi women is not to go bare-toed, regardless
of how long the skirt is. And the norm among the majority of RZ is to go
bare-legged and bare-toed regardless of how long or short the skirt is.
I salute you and those women like you who follow the psak that you do,
but that psak followed the adoption of this practice on the part of the
more religious RZ -- it did not precede it.

Of course as I recently said on Areivim, there is an enormous spread of
practice and belief among the MO and RZ.

Personally I wish we could all just be normal, wear skirts below the
knee and not wear stockings at all except when we want to look dressy.

RMB was upset that we took a thread about men's tznius and went straight
back to talking about women's tznius -- though it was RYL and not you
or I who changed the subject.

But I will say that I don't understand why men have to wear socks for
davening, either. My husband is a kohen and on duchening days he makes
sure to wear socks without holes. He doesn't want to gross anyone out,
least of all his Maker. And yet if he were doing the avodah in the BHM'K,
even if he were the kohen gadol in resplendant golden and torquoise
costume with a mitznefes on his head -- he'd be running around barefoot.

And did women's stockings or socks even exist back then? They certainly
didn't have nylon or polyester, I guess they could have made socks from
wool, but did they? Does the Gemara ever talk about women (or men)
wearing socks or stockings?

--Toby  Katz
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