[Avodah] Non-Jews Begin to Embrace Ketubah Wedding

[Zev Sero]

On 1/03/2011 8:07 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 01, 2011 at 07:21:48PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>>>       ... yeish leesor mitzad zeh atzmo
>>>       af im lo yavo lidei qilqul kelal
>>>       shelo yit'u lomar shesagi raq beqidushin shelah...
>
>>> And "hu issur gamur uvarur mitzad shikhechas hadin veshinui hadin."
>
>>> Who are the future people making this error if not onlookers and those
>>> they speak to?
>
>> The participants themselves, of course.  If he meant onlookers he would
>> have said so.
>
> He is speaking of future weddings. IOW, general impression of the
> community if we allow ring exchange to become a norm.

Again, *where are the words* about onlookers who don't know what's
going on?  They're not there.  You're ignoring words that are blatantly
there and repeated, because they're essential to the topic, and then
inserting words that aren't there, but would have to be there if it
were saying what you want it to say.  Why don't you just try reading
it for what it says, instead of what you want it to say?  Just take
its words as they are printed, and don't assume them to mean more or
less than what they say, and see how it comes out.



>>> You presume RMF is talking only about when her intent is that it's
>>> part of the wedding ceremony.
>
>> Absolutely.  Not only that it's part of the ceremony, but that it's
>> *an act of kiddushin*. ...
>
> It's during the ceremony either way. You're insisting the iqar is the
> participants' intent that it be part of what makes qiddushin chal. Again,
> I don't see how that difference has much to do with the problem RMF is
> trying to avoid.

It has everything to do with it: the problem is that people will think
a woman can be mekadesh a man.  The reason for this concern is obvious:
what is the sevara to allow it, which he rejects?  That sevara is
*explicitly* "let them do whatever they like, let them think whatever
they like, we know that what they're doing is of no effect and therefore
harmless".   To reject that, he points out the obvious: if you allow them
to do so, then they will naturally think it works!  What else should they
think?  That you're humouring them while laughing at them inside (which
is in fact what you propose doing)?!  Obviously they will not think that,
or they wouldn't put up with it in the first place.  They take this
seriously, and if you allow them to go through with it they can *only*
conclude that you agree with them that this is a valid kiddushin.  And
that is the harm that this will do.  Ziyuf hatorah.  These people will
be mistaken about the halacha, and so will everybody they tell about
this "chidush torah" that they learned from you.  But that is all about
the actual participants who *know* what's going on; all they don't know
is the actual halacha.



>>> I'm noting that he discusses it simply looking to others
>
>> Again, he does not mention others, he doesn't hint at them, they simply
>> don't exist in the teshuvah.  You're making them up.
>
> He speaks of future weddings. That's others.

Where does he speak of future weddings?  Where do those words appear?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher