[Avodah] Fwd: worst aveirah

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 12:40:53PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> Piquach nefesh does not inherently override Shabbos. Shabbos overrides
:> Shabbos, and in the case of someone who isn't / doesn't have to be
:> shomer Shabbos, it's other mitzvos that override Shabbos (mishum eivah

: 1. Do you have a source that pikuach nefesh overrides shabbat for a
: non-shomer shabbat only because of eivah/darchei shalom.

: If so it should have practical applications such as if shabbat is
: hutra or dechuya
: and other differences between a deoraisa and derabban

The whole sugya from which we get hutera vs dechuya (Yoma 84b) is based
on the notion that the usal "vechai bahem" isn't sufficient for Shabbos,
which was my first point. 85a-b, where the topic shifts to *safeiq*
piquach nefesh, lists Shabbos-specific derashos, then Shemuel gives the
7th and last shitah that it is from the usual "vechai bahem", and then
Rava agrees, poking holes in the other derashos.

The opinion I was giving was that of R' Shimon ben Menasyah (#6), who
derives it from "'veshameru Venei Yisrael es haShabbbos' -- ... chalal
alav Shabbos achas kedei sheyishmar shabasos harbei." The Ohr haChaim
on the pasuq says it's the maqor.

: 2. We generally pasken that pikuach nefesh overrides shabbat because of
: "ve-chai behem"

See <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol06/v06n010.shtml#11>, where
RYGB introduces to a discussion of tinoq shenishba (TsN) mention of
R SZ Aurbach's uncertainty whether a TsN who is machalel Shabbos is
applicable. The TE holds that a TsN is not mechalal Shabbos, so one apply
RSbM's derashah. But both would apparently agree that a true rebelious
mumar. IOW, "veshameru", not "vechai bahem" currently carries the day.
I don't get it, since Shemuel with Rava's support appears to be the
gemara's masqanah.

See RYGB's post and its replies (click on the subject line in the archive
to get to the index entry).


:> Which implies that all else being equal, mitzvos BALC (bein adam lachaveiro)
:> are more chamur than mitzvos BALM. QED.

: I don't agree. G-d tells us that we can violate his laws in order to save a
: life.
: That doesnt't give us permission to harm someone else to save a life. It has
: nothing to do with what is more chamur.

: For teshuva on bein-adam-lashem ones needs vidui for beinadam-lechavero one
: needs vidui plus forgiveness from a friend. This is the nature of the sin
: and has nothing to do with more chamur.

I defined a number of axes about which we can rank mitzvos as "worse"
(back in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol28/v28n004.shtml#15>). I'm sure
with work I can find more ranking systems, but the one that generated
this conversation was:
> Qal vachomer uses the number of activities restricted and the size of
> the onesh. In which case, it would have to be a sin for which the
> punishment is seqilah. Of them, perhaps chillul Shabbos, since a mumar
> leShabbos kemumar lekhol haTorah kulah.

I am trying to lay out a ranking system in which the greater number
of issurim or chiyuvim /defines/ the rank. You're reversing that
causality; which is valid, but now how mitzvos are ranked as qal
vs chomer when doing a qal vachomer -- it's a different ranking
system.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Take time,
micha at aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm