[Avodah] Local, Non-Global or Global Flood

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 09:19:08PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote:
> On 11/20/2010 8:05 PM, RMB wrote:
>>  But if the mishnah says we can't comprehend maaseh Bereishis, than
>>  anything we understand to be the literal meaning of the verse's
>>  description of history is in error.

> What mishna?

Sorry, I thought it was obvious -- Chagiga 2:1. You know, the one that
tells you that "Maaseh Bereishis" is a topic of esoterica, not an exoteric
text? From which Maaseh Bereishis becomes an idiom. The real
peshat in Bereishis 1 is about the sheim of 42 osios (Tosafos
Chagiga 11b), and/or Sefer haYetzirah (Tos YT on the Bartenura ad loc).

In Bereishis Rabba 1:5 R' Huna quotes Bar Kaparah that people who try to
describe Maaseh Bereishis are described by the pasuq "tei'alamna sifsei
shaqer, hadoveros al tzadiq ataq begaavah uvuz." (Teh' 21:19)

But really I was just trying to say, "Bereishis 1 is THE Maaseh Bereishis
after all". I wouldn't think a person (other than a handful of neviim
and the dor hamidbar) could read the first peraqim of Yechezqeil and
get what the navi really means. Even with mesorah.

...
> For we, the community following in the footsteps of Moshe Rabbeynu and  
> Avraham Avinu, aleihem hashalom, believe that the world came into being  
> in such-and-such a form, and became such-and-such from such-and-such  
> (/haya kach mi-kach)/, and such was created after such (Moreh Nevuchim  
> 2:17),

Yeah, there was beri'ah, we know this as a fact. Do we understand anything
about how it was like? Only vague hazy notions.

> */Midrash Shemos Rabbah/*//(30:9) recording *Onkelos'* marveling the  
> fact that /the youngest Jewish children know "how the  
> Holy-One-Blessed-be-He created the world....

Couldn't find it in
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%94_%D7%9C_%D7%98
I think you mean what that edition call 30:12
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%94_%D7%9C_%D7%99%D7%91

The word you're translating how is "heiach", which can very plausibly
be, "the youngest of them know about G-d creating the universe; what
He created on Yom Echad, what He created on Yom Sheini" -- which BTW,
Rashi would say "Nothing, they were only PLACED on Yom Sheini. Now what?

> not to mention the Ramban insisting that the days of MB were regular  
...
> Were all these rishonim who understood the peshat meaning of MB as a  
> description of history in error and in violation of your mishna?

You only mention the Ramban in this post, without a mar'eh maqom, and
a reference to a medrash I couldn't use. But recall, you're arguing
against someone who doesn't believe there is any rishon who clearly
takes Bereshis 1 as a comprehensible literal history. Your "all those"
presumes your conclusion.

In any case, wouldn't your question be on the Maharal (again, 1st
haqdamah to Gevuros Hashem discussing the mishnah in Chagiga and
"nevu'ah vechokhmah, chokhmah adifah")? And thus isn't it very likely
your question relies on a bad assumption somewhere?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
micha at aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
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