[Avodah] Local, Non-Global or Global Flood

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:10:05AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 23/11/2010 11:23 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 07:30:22PM -0500, T613K at aol.com wrote:
>> : In the context of the great day that is coming (lifnei ba yom Hashem), the
>> : "day" is clearly the day Hashem's reign begins, the day Mashiach comes, the
>> :  day of the Ge'ulah.  It doesn't refer to the entirety of His reign.
>
>> Again: and is "Yom shekulo Shabbos", which I think is synonymous with
>> "Yom Hashem", only 24 hours?
>
> "Yom shekulo shabbos" doesn't appear in Tanach.  It appears only once in
> mishnayos, in the last mishneh of Tamid, and that mishneh is quoted twice
> in Shas.  It's a drosho on "mizmor shir leyom hashabbos", where the pshat
> clearly is a 24-hour day.  I don't see how you can use that as a precedent
> for learning pshat in an instance of "yom" in Tanach.

"Alei asor" (pasuq 4) is a messianic reference, as the asor wasn't played
in bayis rishon or sheini. As is "lehishamdam adei ad", "VeAtah marom
le'olam Hashem. Ki hinei oyvekha yoveidu..." etc... so I am not sure I
agree with your peshat. It could very well be that the first pasuq says
al pi peshat, "A musical outpouring (mizmor) with poetry (shir) about
the era of complete Shabbos" or "Conductor: This is a song about..."
Just suggesting...

Not really sure why you raise that pasuq, though, I didn't.

But in any case, you and Toby both identified the Yom Hashem with the
first moment of the final stage of history, and I pointed out that the
final stage of history is called by chazal (at least once) a "yom".
This is in particular a response to your "what else could it mean"?

So why are you mapping Yom Hashem to a start, when Hashem is reigning
the entire period? What makes the first moment more Yom Hashem than the
entire duration of the state it inaugurates? And is "bayom hahu yiyheh
Hashem echad ushemo echad" but not the next day"?

I think the burden of proof rests on you to show that yamim can mean
year, but yom itself never has connotations other than 24 hours. You're
introducing an artificial inconsistency.


Second, you asked about the meaning of a day of Shabbos if maaseh
bereishis wasn't 7 days. But here you speak of the natural mapping between
Shabbos day and the yom shekul Shabbos era. If days naturally map to
eras, then that's enough to answer your own question. (Which was already
answered, I'm just pointing out that you yourself agree with the givens.)

...
>> See IE ad loc (Ber' 27:44)
>> and his comparison to the "yamim" of yovel. Explicitly makes yom a period
>> other than 24 hours.

> No, he doesn't.  He translates exactly as I just suggested above.
> "Yamim" means a year, and "achadim" means any number less than ten.

You hadn't yet conceded that yom (in any conjugation) can mean more
than 24 hours when I posted that. Now you make that concession, but
put up an artificial wall between yamim which is ambiguously "days"
or "years" and "yom" which is always "day". The way I understand it,
they mean "periods of time" or "period", respectively, no homonymity,
no difference in translation between the singular and plural forms.

Tangent, since this can't be taken as a ra'ayah?
When is Yom Yerushalayim? It appears to run from churban bayis sheini
(see Gitin 57b) through Hadrian. Aru, aru -- two events. "Al hayesod
bah" would not be the churban, as there was still rubble left standing.
It would be Hadrian's plowing over har habayis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
micha at aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
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